Bigfoot: Would You Shoot One?

[Guest]

No, I just liked hunting humans. Compared to hunting animals, humans are dumb.

Yeah that offers a vote of confidence.

I guess if I were here to prove anything, I would offer statistics now wouldn't I because I do back up my statements when there is a reason to. But we are talking about the intangible here where proof is something we are limited to by our experience. Wouldn't you say that to be the case with Sas Splash? We are also discussing a matter of morality and ethics, don't think there's stats for that measure of humanity. Sorry you find it tiring too, I don't mean to bore you really. You do set a good example tho saying you hunt humans. I guess that explains why you would not find it difficult to hunt Sas.

Tracker, I didn't want to knock our species too much. We have to keep hope right?

Oh and thanks for the wish of luck Splash. Should do well with the storms we have coming through.

Edited October 31, 2010 by PragmaticTheorist

[southernyahoo]

Bigfoot can be proven with DNA extracted from tiny bits of tissue smaller than the head of a pin. Like this.

So I don't see the need to shoot one. DNA is ultimately the standard that determines a new species in todays science anyways. If bigfoot is an extant biological entity this will eventually happen whether one is ever shot or not.

[Guest ChrisBFRPKY]

Bigfoot can be proven with DNA extracted from tiny bits of tissue smaller than the head of a pin. Like this. (pic removed to save space)

So I don't see the need to shoot one. DNA is ultimately the standard that determines a new species in todays science anyways. If bigfoot is an extant biological entity this will eventually happen whether one is ever shot or not.

Southernyahoo, I don't normally comment on the "should kill" "shouldn't kill" threads, I think it's up to the individual. But, here's the thing with DNA: Unless there is a biological specimen on file somewhere, the scientific community has no way of determining exactly what species the unknown DNA submitted comes from. A good example would be the recently found Rhinopithecus strykeri snub-nosed monkey. Now if one was testing unknown DNA, how could one determine the DNA wasn't from another unknown primate like the formerly unknown snub-nosed monkey? Unfortunately, there's no way we can "prove" what the unknown DNA sample is from without the specimen. I think back to a movie I watched a few years ago. It was the remake of the old TV show "Lost in Space" and in that movie, they showed an advanced technology that allowed their computer to break down a DNA sample, then reassemble a complete 3-D graphic of the creature it came from. (some kind of freaky space spider in the movie) If only we had that kind of technology! It may be on the way but until then, we'll need the specimen on file before we can determine exactly what the DNA matches up with. I tend to disregard any claims of Bigfoot DNA proof upcoming because the fact is, unless they have the creature it came from on file, their findings will remain just another unproven theory. Chris B.

[southernyahoo]

Unless there is a biological specimen on file somewhere, the scientific community has no way of determining exactly what species the unknown DNA submitted comes from.

Chris B.,

It's a common misconception that DNA from an unknown is not identifiable as being related to a known species or is itself, a new species. A new species can be placed on the phylogenetic tree of life using it's unique DNA , it's relatedness to every other known can be determined and it's latest known common ancestor with a known can be determined. The Scientists who test possible BF samples wouldn't bother if this were not the case. Every knowledgable skeptic on this forum will acknowledge this.

You should do some reading up on new species discovered via DNA. They can tell if it is primate , if it's a great ape, and if it is a new hominid from the genus Homo with ample DNA sequences.

About all a squatch has to do is scrape itself on someones metal shed in back of his house to leave enough tissue, or let it's pulled out hairs be found in sufficient quantity, and this mystery can be solved.

[Guest ChrisBFRPKY]

That's a good point but unfortunately, that's also the main problem. Since these creatures seem to be close to the human DNA type, how many times must we hear "Sample was likely contaminated with human DNA during collection" Chris B.

[southernyahoo]

I think science is coming around to the "human" result and looking a little deeper. Contamination wouldn't be able to account for ancient hominid or ape mutations that we no longer have. If it were more closely related to a Neanderthal or known great ape it would be ground breaking. It might look essentially human with a few key mutations not found in known human populations or it could be much closer to known nonhuman great apes, but with a few human mutations. I think it likely there would be some new mutations that we've never seen in any hominin. Looking past ones initial skepticism, is probably rare when labs test these samples.

[Guest tracker]

So what does it come down to?, The lab techs who do the testing won't make the leap and chart it as a new specimen? Or they just don't want to put their name and rep on the line? How many samples do they need?

Sorry this end of it is kind of boring for me so I am asking those that know the proceedures and protocols and red tape. Whats are the hold up or snags if we got viable DNA samples on records at the universities already? If they don't need a body to identify the Sasquatch as a new animal life form?

Are they all waiting for a scientist like David Suzuki to attach his name to it. Then they will all jump on board and say they knew about the creature all along since the PGF?

[Guest]

PT, don't get me wrong here, I'm just trying to figure out where you are coming from. Seems pretty obvious to me and I imagine to others, what your opinion is as to what BF are and what they aren't. If my use of the word camp offended you, I apologize. If I got you wrong, feel absolutely free to enlighten me.

As for the close encounter with your 30-30 in hand, I was and am again trying to figure out the dealio. You made several statements making it clear your life was in danger, to include this one, and I quote "I AM CERTAIN that I would have had my head torn off had I fired at him with my puny 30-30 cartridge". Now to me, that statement leaves little doubt you felt your life was in danger. Then you go on to relate how aggressive the critter's approach was but nearly in the next breath also state "So yeah I was extremely scared. I never said my life was in danger though". Maybe not in those words, but you certainly left no doubt! So being, perhaps you can understand my confusion. I think maybe that one scared you something fierce (fully understandable)and you are having a tough time squaring that with the gentle quasi-humans you believe them to be.

I might reiterate my firm belief that at 20 feet, a 150-170 grain 30-30 through the eye would have settled it's hash for sure & for certain...

My lifetime of hunting & snooping the wild places lead me to believe animals are more attuned to their senses and surroundings than we, how much so and to which senses vary by species, but I have never seen first hand proof any have a "6th" sense or in any way have mental powers beyond humans. When someone starts talking how monkees have mental abilities beyond humans, which would obviously have put them higher on the evolutionary ladder long ago and us running around naked in the woods, I have a tough time buying it.

For my thin & dusty dime, it's a mighty tough sell that these things mind-screw humans, and a lot tougher sell to prove it. My suspicion is such experiences are far more likely caused by very human reactions to the stress of experiencing something that we have been taught should not be and that scares the beejeesus out of us. As far as I can see evidence points to them having roughly the level of sophistication & society of other great apes. Perhaps a bit "smarter" and/or more cunning, for lack of a better word, but certainly nothing super-human. It seems as they are built different they do certain acts other great apes don't, but again nothing I see points to super-human capabilities.

As for people, I can't state I've seen anything pointing to ESP, but I suppose anything is possible, albiet improbable. Even if it wre proven to be true scientifically, how that would transfer to animals is unclear to me.

As an aside, it seems to me that most accounts that suggest or state these things are anything but big apes come from the PNW, not further east/south. Just food for thought...

I think between the two of us, I may be the more pragmatic in regard to monkees. Don't take any of this as any sort of put down. I'm more thinking out loud here than anything else, trying to put your experiences & beliefs into context. I thoroughly enjoy hearing of others experiences in regard to monkees, even if I don't personally share exactly the same beliefs...

Good luck on that elk hunt, BTW. Hope you have a tag that allows you a bull and you get one bigger than you can fit in the house (I have one I barely could get in the door, the only place I could hang him was in the stairwell with the bear I mentioned earlier). Me, I have a buck tag this year and as usual,will take pretty much the entire season off. I had a 180+ 6 point chase a doe by me last year after I had filled my buck tag, and no one managed to bump him off. Don't know if I'll see him this year, but I'm sure going to try...

[BobZenor]

Some apes apparently do have mental abilities beyond humans and those abilities do have to do with what is reasonably called intelligence. There is one example of a chimp that sees 10 figures on a screen and remembered where they were far better than any normal person could and it makes me feel retarded watching it.

That isn't to say that apes are smarter than us but their brains work differently and they apparently have mental abilities beyond ours. We do tend to define intelligence based on what we do especially well. I would assume that something that very likely is much closer to us than that chimp would probably still have some key differences in how its brain works. Ours is very good at language and abstract or logical thinking. It is hard to imagine what an animal with a larger brain than a chimp might be able do if its brain were wired to focused on different mental skills than ours. Orangutans are master navigators in their forest canopy world. They apparently have mental maps in their heads and can find particular fruit trees in a forest when they are ripe. Their memory isn't better than ours but it does seem to be different.

I wouldn't shot one unless my life was in danger. I was so afraid when I was approached at night by what I thought was a sasquatch that I doubt I would shoot it even in self defense unless it was a last hope sort of thing. I would not want to potentially make it angry. It was fairly close range and a 357 really wouldn't seem that big. I didn't have it with me at that time though. I doubt it would have even crossed my mind to get the gun out of the car if it were there. Diving in the car and speeding away was an option and we took it. I would be very reluctant to shoot something as large as it seemed to be. Self defense would be at such a close range that it would have to be really threatening for me to shoot it and it could probably pound me into the ground before it died. If I started dodging large rocks, that would be a scenario where I would start shooting to kill.

Edited November 1, 2010 by BobZenor

[Guest]

NDT, no, your quotes of mine are accurate. What you need to understand though is that there were different 'stimulus' at work if you will. So the first thing I am relying on is my experiences from a number of encounters over the decades. Those have 'shaped' my beliefs or impression of these creatures. None in the past have ever been outright aggressive towards me. Make sense? HOWEVER, like I'm sure you have, I've read those 'other' stories too, such as from NA's and even the unsubstantiated ones. I recall one where two hunters were in the field, one hunter shot and killed a bf. The other bf showed up and tore the guilty hunter to pieces while allowing the other passive hunter to survive. There is another one, (and yes unsubstantiated), that used to be posted at the International Bigfoot Society, where a guide out of Bend Oregon had taken these 3 young women from Reno up in the Cascades (only 20 miles from my encounter for that matter), and a Sas came out of the brush and he started shooting at it with in fact his 30-30. Well it tore him apart while the girls watched and screamed. The places in the report were real but the people were impossible to verify. (These aren't the cases I was speaking about above either of missing hunters.)

AT THE SAME TIME, I have read endless accounts of them being benign and shy curious creatures. I've also had more then my share of peaceful encounters. None of which were aggressive in nature. Scary and intimidating yes! lol The reaction almost anyone has is usually FEAR no matter how much you try to subdue it. But as I have these occasional encounters, I get better control out of myself with each one. I truly hope to be able to calmly sit down once in their presence. If I didn't have my equally scared dog with me I might have.

So anyway, there are quite a few varied personality types that I've read about over the years, so it 'becomes' part of the premise for what bf nature can be, to me anyhow. As for that experience of mine. YES he approached the position to my path back to my truck, in what very much appeared to be an aggressive manner, so I DID NOT know his intentions at that time. So therefore I WAS very scared and did not know if he wanted me or my dog. (He wasn't going to get my dog I'll tell you that and I kept her behind me.) But as I got closer to him, he didn't show the same aggression that he exhibited on his initial crash through the timber. I think he may have been amazed that I 'approached him', which I'm sure isn't the usual human response. Mostly its RUN, YELL, SHOOT OVER HEAD BEHIND YOU. lol But I HAD to take control of the situation due to my options available, or at least put it in a different scenario then the options that existed. And so I approached him and spoke calmly to him, and he just stood there listening. Not that he understood me, I don't know that. But his response was commensurate to the words I spoke, so yes even that is possible. My point is, the encounter EVOLVED from one of fear & potential death, to one of acceptance of, and a cease fire of sorts. And I sensed that HE knew I didn't want to harm him either. But I also knew that had I shot, or maybe even appeared ready to shoot (like aiming for the face), that it wouldn't matter and I'd be gone. Twenty two feet was a single leap for him mind you. How long can a mad bear go if your bullet doesn't penetrate? It's like 7 seconds if you get him in the heart. Remember, one of my hands was occupied with my dog's leash and a scared German Shepherd will pull your whole body around.

Let me also add, that I walked down the 'middle' of the old skid road past him, not the backside of it. That meant being even closer to him then I wanted, but I did that BECAUSE I also knew they are often not alone and thus it could have again been suicide on my part to be the fool and shoot. Bottom line is, there were many things going on, and that is not unlike many such situations. Aggression was mixed with timidness depending on which split second you were at. And it was balancing on a thread, meaning it could have turned into a chaotic bloody mess in a split second. As loud as his breathing was, you could have heard a pin drop. Time also slowed down for me so every action on my part was extremely calculated. That's where I drew upon my past experiences too. Now I have a wonderful research site and I hope to have another close encounter with him so I can try to take it to the next level of yes, 'friendship'. I'm sure I lost some ground however from trying to conceal hidden cameras at the feed station. So now its the long process of regaining his trust. Believe that or not, it isn't something I can prove either. But I've got good field instincts and in the end it comes down to my interpretation as per results of different events. Events like this aren't interpreted well to the reader I know.

So does that make sense re the 'feared for my life' extreme and the peaceful interaction at the other end? Its just too bad you can't have been in my shoes because it would all make sense. You can't just pit is as one or the other. The situation was dynamic just as my experiences in the past have been. And its probably BECAUSE of how I approach the situation, that they pick up on my non aggressive posture and intent. And so I have these occasional encounters. And yeah, I believe there is much more going on that some just can't grasp. Once you're closed minded to things you don't understand, its hard to budge I suspect. I guess that's just where others will have to accept or not because there is no proof that can be offered. Disbelief of more complex behavior from them IS a camp itself, and by no means is it the majority. Maybe here in this thread because it may be mostly those who want to shoot one that are attracted to it, but that's not an absolute either. I think BFF has changed some btw and its definitely for the good.

I also DON'T know just what they are. I have my theories supported by past experiences, but those leave various options open. And yeah, I do believe they have some level of ESP that we can't grasp. I don't know about mind controlling though, I think that may be simply a statement from those who wish to quell the idea and don't grasp it very well. I do believe there is something to it because of something that happened to me 30 years ago with them. I won't go into details but I will say it occurred when those friends and I were going to try and kill one on a so called expedition. I think that term is juvenile too anymore but it was for an extended trip. I simply go out into the woods on a regular basis anymore.

And like with any subject, the more you research it, the more it make sense. There is a vast universe out there we do not yet understand. We have only begun to grasp what time and space really is. It's like the subject of alternate dimensions. Many in the field can't tolerate the term and yet the VAST majority of the world's top physicists believe that alternate dimensions DO IN FACT EXIST! How does this field reconcile that? Who is right, a bunch of bigfoot chasing hunters or the world's smartest scientists? lol So I keep an open mind because it would be arrogant on my part to say something does not exist. I have seen more then one ghostly spirit when I was younger. I have seen a ufo fairly close. Am I to say that these things do not exist? And since I know they do, it would be equally arrogant for me to say that telepathy does not when I've experienced evidence that it does. Problem is that so many deal with it similarly to how people dealt with witchcraft in past centuries. They don't know and therefore end up villainizing what they don't understand. Isn't that just ignorance? I think that some people simply have gifts others do not. I'll be the first to admit too, I don't understand how it works. I just remain open minded because 'stuff' has happened that verifies for me that these unknown phenomenon are real.

You also commented about apes & PNW, I don't find that to be the majority of impressions. Could it be that what may account for your perception is that it is based on the groups you spent your time with? Just like the way BFF used to be, it had many preconceived notions and people who challenged that were kept on the outside and even ostracized. That didn't make it right or that it was truth. The fact is, there are so many researchers who avoided BFF because of the way it had become. It was really missing out on the world because it had become so closed minded. That's not how science works either. No I don't take any of it as a put down nor should you. We all grow up with a base of questions about our world, not everyone has experiences that answer those mysteries. That's life. But there REALLY is more to our universe that we don't understand. The following I've just realized too. Science consists of three states, what is proven, what is being explored to someday be proven (or disproved), and then what we do not yet even know exists. Things like ESP and 'other dimensions' are somewhere in the middle. Science IS exploring those mysteries. I have no idea what's in that last category. lol

Bottom line is, these beings are much more complex than some want to allow them to be. I sometimes wonder if that's to make it easier to kill one, because believing they are more complex and intelligent would get in the way of what they feel they have to do. Conscience isn't supposed to enter into what one feels his duty is. Non emotional research, just like the people who dissect live animals, blocking out feeling or emotion for the greater good. But from my experience base, I know they are sentient and thus am able to explore deeper in that direction. That's an important leap for humans to accomplish and I think everyone would stand to gain something by exploring the same. It doesn't mean its right for everyone, but for those who do, well there are amazing things to explore. AND THAT'S partly why that encounter of mine was able to evolve from one of initial aggression to one of a peaceful interaction between two different species. Years later I can look back and know I did the right thing because it allowed me to confirm even more about them. That doesn't mean I don't go out there prepared for the worst, but I won't ever go out there with the intent of harming one.

And so now my experience base includes what started as a terrifying incident that turned into a peaceful close encounter. So I will hopefully take that to my next one should it ever happen. Hope the above answered some questions...

As for my hunting trip, its spike only this year. Big bull season was during a full moon so elected to go for the more sure thing meat hunt. But thanks too for wish of good luck. Nothing gets in the way of my elk hunt each year. Speaking of, time to get focused on the task at hand.

BobZ, that is an incredible chimp for sure. Saw that on 20-20 once. I could not even comprehend his memory capability. Yep, that's a good example of a lessor primate surpassing what most humans can do.

Edited November 1, 2010 by PragmaticTheorist

[Guest LittleFeat]

Awesome post PT!

[Guest midnightwalker1]

Very good post PT. Most folks who talk that crap haven't had one of the big boys step in front of them. They don't understand your dang knees almost buckle at the sheer size. And then your mind wanders in wonder..."How the hell does he get through the woods without displacing a hell of a lot of trees." And to think of shooting one? Not like you're shooting a slow bull elephant. These guys are extremely agile and by the time you're done playing with your pee shooter, you'll hopefully not be staring at your arms from afar. Hopefully that big boy went out of his way to leave and not do what most humans would do...rip you a new ahole... because I sure would.

I know a guy that's former special forces (served in Iraq) that thought he could outsmart them. Now here's a guy with real skillsets that are war tested and not some "I am a big bad ass hunter" dude. Well he got out there, slowly, quietly and carefully (like a sniper would) and squared away in a fox hole. When night rolled around, eventually he realized a sas smelled him or sensed him out there. He could hear and feel him walking around looking for him. It was intimidating to him just to experience those big steps searching him out. Then the sas stopped very close to his fox hole (think that's the term-basically covered up in debris)...then the big alpha sas let out 5 gallon drum breaths of sheer anger. By this time, his gun was long forgotten and he was slightly freaked out. He waited and waited and waited. Finally, he got the guts to leave there and heard the sas come right up and start shadowing him as he got the hell out. The sas let out one of those godawful screams at him and then let him go. This guy won't go out researching alone at night anymore. It shook him up that bad. What was his intent that night. I never asked but I am pretty **** sure that I know. Fortunately, he doesn't have that mindset anymore.

So for you badasses, I doubt you'd fair better than this guy. But of course you believe that you would.

[Doc Holliday]

Well spoken, I commend you for this. Now just need to get those living in the COD "reality" to read this and understand what it means. No offense to those who play, just referring to the ones who are over absorbed by the game and think they can do in real life what they do in the game.

thank you woodslore,there is no reset button on a real firearm,is there buddy? be prepared for the worst i suppose,but considering the possible consequences from other people & squatch as well, id most likely just watch in amazement,the circus of trespassers it would generate wouldnt be worth it,much less the other potential problems.

as long as they dont bother me & i since i suspect they DONT taste like chicken( a joke,lighten up folks)maybe i could work out a deal, if they gently push the biggest bucks to me during hunting season ,then in exchange I would leave them a choice liver & hind quarter after the fact. i get some help w/ big bucks,they get a hearty meal w/out having to chase it so hard ,sounds like a win-win to me

Edited November 2, 2010 by slicktrick

[Guest tracker]

I use to laugh when reading or hearing stories of these skilled hunter type guys ex forces what ever. Who believe nothing could be assbad as them in the woods. Now I just shake my head because I've seen to much to laugh at anymore. Usually they don't even have training in any regard. Just hunters with all the gear with the standard hunting or fireams course and big Rambo ego's.

Here's my usual 5 tips for all walks of life just so they know what they are up against and make can it back safe.

1.The ego is the 1st thing you need to lose before leaving your truck. It will either get you lost or hurt. Map out the area so you can find your way back in the dark even if panicking!

2. The 2nd is no matter what you do, the big guys can either see, smell and hear you a mile away. So there's no sneaking up to them and they won't pass you by if your in a blind, foxhole or tree. Best bet is let them come close to your camp, don't go ramboing in the dark woods.

3. The 3rd is the more intimidating you try to be the more they will be and you will lose. Or they won't come closer at all. Women fare better at extended encounters because they seem to be able to sence your intentions if you are a threat or not.

4. The 4 th is giving up control of the situation. You being in their territory is enough of a challenge. So don't be stupid and try to level the playing field by taking a shot at one or something. A bright light will scare them off better than a rifle shot

5. The 5th is to relax and enjoy the encounter and know when to leave. If the big bugger is aggressive he wants you out of his woods. Respect that he may be defending his territory, family or he's po from other encounters with us. You will get another chance now that you know where they are. Let them come to you don't try and try to stalk them! They kill other preds in the woods so don't act like one. And no dogs, they hate them.

There's other tips but these 5 will get you in and out with a great story to tell. For good or bad that will be up to you.

[Woodslore]

as long as they dont bother me & i since i suspect they DONT taste like chicken( a joke,lighten up folks)maybe i could work out a deal, if they gently push the biggest bucks to me during hunting season ,then in exchange I would leave them a choice liver & hind quarter after the fact. i get some help w/ big bucks,they get a hearty meal w/out having to chase it so hard ,sounds like a win-win to me

Funny you should mention that. I was reading to something not to long ago that said they (the author/ witness/ whatever) leave a hind quarter hanging near their cabin every hunting season to make peace. Said they started it when their cabin started getting banged up after they bought their hunting property. One night they left the hind quarter out and no banging so they just started doing it every season and no more trouble. Be a neat lure I think.

Though I still like the idea of making friends with one and being his hiking buddy. Have'n old Sasquatch watching your back in the woods, that be amazing.