Guest BFSleuth Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 If the General hasn't responded regarding the type of truck then that is a fair question. If he hasn't indicated what method of transportation was used when in the snow, then Hutch's premise of inaccessibility may be moot. Let's do be respectful of one another. If the General cares to respond I look forward to his reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hutch Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Zigoapex, I like most skeptics, have the ability read beyond the obvious and contraditory statements made. Use some logic here. General's intent in returning to the scene some 2-3 weeks post shooting was to recover a body or bodies. He even stated that he and his partner took several contractor bags to retrieve body-parts. What did he say the big one weighed - approx 600 pounds? I don't think he and the driver were going to pack that out on the handlebars of thier mountain bikes. It is pretty well established by the General that he was hunting at a 7,200 ft elevation in a remote mountainous area - quite a ways of the beaten path. He even called it one of his "hidey holes" as I recall, meaning that not everyone and thier grandma knew where it was. It is a logical assumption under the circumstances that he did indeed drive some sort of weather capable conveyance and this side of a tracked vehicle, a truck or SUV is the obvious choice. Regardless of the mode of transportation, if the USFS had roads closed to access and he was driving a vehicle up to the site, he was trespassing into those closed areas. Assuming they were not closed off, my question remains: How in the heck did he traverse 3 feet of snow on an unplowed access road in his truck? Sorry if my line of questioning upsets some, but I think there are too many issues in this story which need to be resolved for it to be plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest parnassus Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Df What is your timeline? it has been a year and a half since the shooting, more or less, and a year or so(?) since the specimen was sent to Ketchum. Is there any reason why at some point in time you could not send (or advise Justin to) send a specimen to a different lab for analysis, and expect the results within two weeks? Or do you expect to allow Ketchum to keep this all secret for another year? two years? three years? four years? five years? thanks p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MJ151 Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Not sure where you live but most FS roads are not gated in my neck of the woods. One travels at their own risk on these road. I have even seen a few mainline FS roads plowed, though not often. I can only make it so far up in the winter before i have to stop, guys in lifted jeeps make it much farther. I've been in jeeps in 2' of snow and doing just fine. You don't go fast but you can still go. Now private timber land is a different story, those are gated most of the time winter or summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 You know what Hutch, nothing he says will satisfy you. Nothing. Far as I'm concerned we are done talking about this here. I'm calling General today and urging him to stop speaking about this for now. Why? Because he's answered so many questions and been honest about it. Now you are just badgering. He does not owe you an explanation. You don't believe him anyways, so why do you care? No I'm not his keeper, and he can tell me to **** off if he wants to, but this is a waste of time. I also know I told you to go to the source, and that's what you're doing, but you are rude about it. If you approached him with a simple inquiry, he'd probably answer your question, but that's just not how you roll huh? You catch more flies with honey.....never mind. I would have assumed you'd have figured that out by now. Hmmm? Parn, I'll pm you the answer to your question. DR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimB Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Sorry if my line of questioning upsets some, but I think there are too many issues in this story which need to be resolved for it to be plausible. It's not the line, my friend, it's the manner. Do as you like- perhaps it'll work out for you. Good luck! Tim B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest parnassus Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Hutch, I think claims like "...there is zero evidence to back up..." this story are incorrect. I take Derekfoot at his word, that there is evidence in the form of tissue samples, pictures of tissue samples, pictures of the location and follow up investigation, etc. that are currently under NDA's. If you don't fully understand the concept of NDA's and their role in publication of scientific findings, then it would be well for you to do a little research on the matter. Look up any major science publication and click through to find their publication requirements. No publication wants to have their researchers blabbing to the press before they are ready to publish. BFS: oh, please...stop blaming the journals it just looks like more scapegoating...a variant of blaming "science." or blaming "skeptics" or "the men in black", or the "timber industry" or "armchair critics" or Robert Lindsay or ........ from one who has published in major science publications: NDA's have no role that is discussed in the publication requirements of major science publications. To use your words, "Do a little research on the matter". The Ketchum camp has actually admitted recently that it is choosing to be secret. The requirement that journals have is basically that the authors don't disclose the contents of the final paper. The media embargo is a constraint on the media, not on the authors. NDA's have little or nothing to do with journals. They have to do with keeping things secret, and this is generally a sign not of science, but rather of the profit motive, or some other motivation....for instance, if I got a bad grade on a science test, I wouldn't be likely to hang it up on the refrigerator door for my parents to see. Capiche? p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimB Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Df What is your timeline? it has been a year and a half since the shooting, more or less, and a year or so(?) since the specimen was sent to Ketchum. Is there any reason why at some point in time you could not send (or advise Justin to) send a specimen to a different lab for analysis, and expect the results within two weeks? Or do you expect to allow Ketchum to keep this all secret for another year? two years? three years? four years? five years? thanks p. I'm pretty sure they've stated many times that they already have the results but can't share them due to the NDA. Perhaps a better question would be- can you tell me what know or are you going to abide by the agreement you made? Seems more to the point... Tim B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MJ151 Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 I agree, no matter what General says or does will be satisfactory to some people. At this point people can choose to believe nor not believe. Only two people where there when it happened, those are the only two that know what went down. And in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter what the rest of us think. A sample was sent to Dr Ketchum, it may or may not turn out to be something. I do appreciate General relaying the story and answering questions here. I also appreciate Derek adding to it as he has done. Do I still have questions, sure I do. If i really was dieing to get the answers I would take Derek's advice and contact General directly. I couldn't care less about how he got to the site in 3' of snow. Maybe it wasn't 3' but 2' so what, it doesn't matter to me. I am happy to wait for what ever result are returned when they are returned. That is because the results don't effect my day to day life one bit and I'm not going to say a man is lying about something, especially when I can't look him in the eye while hearing the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimB Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 All hail the vanguards of "Science", their arguments keep the evil capitalists at bay from their assault on "Science." You go! Tim B. from one who has published in major science publications: p. Can you document this fact? It's central to your argument, yet as of now it's only hearsay. Your argument might hold value if you could back it up with fact. Tim B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BFSleuth Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 MJ151, I agree from my experience on forest service roads I can't recall that many that were gated. Normally that would be in the event of a washout only. I've cross country skied many forest service roads in the winter and we simply drove until we couldn't anymore. Other folks take snowmobiles on a trailer for the same purpose. Hutch may be barking at shadows on this issue. Derekfoot, thank you for your response and I can certainly understand your concerns regarding the tone of Hutch's post. Hutch, a request for information from General is certainly warranted, but I think better results can be obtained by requesting information without implying that person is lying. Parn, I defer to your personal experience with NDA's and major science publications. However, when I read the Embargo requirements of a publication such as Nature... http://www.nature.co...es/embargo.html ... I'm left to wonder whether discussion on an open forum, or releasing information in terms of partial results to satisfy the requirements of a few forum members, qualify as a violation of the embargo? This forum is followed by the blogosphere and if I were in Ketchum's shoes I would be hesitant to publish anything substantive on this forum or any other social media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) @Hutch There are so many different ways they could of got there, snowmobiles, quad with tracks, utv with tracks, 6 or 8 wheel with tracks, cross country ski's, snow shoes etc... (not a mountain bike, )they never said they were going to haul out the body, they didn't know if they were going to find anything. they could have trying to located it to recover it later. All your doing is assuming they drove up there in their truck in two feet of snow and use that as your smoking gun that they are lying. Nice try but again you do not look into the details and try to twist it to fit what you believe. If I was Justin I would not waste my time replying either, it's obvious to what your intentions are and I think Derek has the correct method on how to address you. Edited March 29, 2012 by zigoapex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hutch Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 DF - Quite frankly, I am not surprised by your response and it only further solidifies my beliefs on this subject. You are exactly right, I DO NOT believe you or the General about this story as it has been presented. Any time the line of questioning gets difficult with respect to actual facts, the "I don't care what anyone thinks, etc" and refusals to answer come into play. It was a pretty simple question -what truck did he use - but since it seems to bring up a possible hole in the story, your camp is retreating at full speed - just as you did with my offer for a polygraph - not a peep since that was offered. Pretty surprised that you are this sensitive for someone in this field. DF & General should be embracing my line of questioning as it is going to give them a chance to go back and fill in questionable holes in this story. Once they hit the interview circuit for the book that is coming out (whether written by them or someone else) these questions will be hitting them face to face and they cannot run away from them by turning off thier computer monitor. Zigopex, in your infinte wisdom, please tell me where they have ever stated what conveyance they used to return to the scene? I HAVE looked into the details of this story much more than you will know and if it was ever stated, I would not have to ask the question. I guess the truck is also covered under the NDA Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck,............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobZenor Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) He doesn't have to make it all the way up to 7200 feet. Relating every detail how he got there is revealing of the location but I doubt it will remain secret forever. A lot of times in the mountains a few thousand feet is more than enough to cause the difference in no snow and three feet of snow. It is a little insulting stating the obvious but so so is implying he must be lying with zero evidence. It doesn't require a conspiracy. You couldn't even eliminate a two wheel drive Honda Civic with snow tires and you might not need the snow tires to get close enough. There was no snow when he shot it in case someone thought that. That is the only time I heard about them jumping out of a truck or vehicle anyway. Edited March 29, 2012 by BobZenor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) Hutch Thank you for proving my point , THEY never did !!! you are the one who implies they drove a truck there, if you can't remember what you wrote a couple hours ago, I can see why you are having a problem retaining details of the event. Lie detector test? why? if he passes, you would say it was wrong and doesn't mean anything, if he failed .0001% of it, you would use that as a the smoking gun. Derek and Justin do not owe you anything, you act like they need to prove to you what happened for this to be true, they don't and I bet either of them will loose a wink of sleep over your OPINION. Edited March 29, 2012 by zigoapex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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