Looking for any DNA studies related to Sasquatch

[hiflier]

In a nutshell Ms. Ramos went on to say that after over 3,000 reads on three submitted soil samples from Dr. Mayor the sequencer indicated genus Pan trogludyte. UCLA's disclaimer, which she suggested I read (which I did), stated that DNA results may not have a resolution that would show a particular species but would show genus, of if somewhat degraded, at least family, which obviously in this case would be primate. She further explained that Human DNA in e-DNA samples was nearly ubiquitous across the US because Humans are now basically everywhere.

Edited February 5, 2022 by hiflier

[hiflier]

As a side note to this thread, I have expressed many times in the past few years that there are more people in academia that are approachable and interested in the Sasquatch subject than anyone realizes. And Mr. Darby Orcutt here has reinforced that point. I've also said that academia needs to know that they are respected and that their knowledge and expertise is supported and needed by us. I hope it encourages more of you as members to reach out to scientists and academia as a whole with your questions so that more of academia knows of us and that as far as this subject goes we are behind them.

[BlackRockBigfoot]

19 hours ago, hiflier said:

 

You raise a good point but sadly it seems, from a source I can't put my finger on, that the Expedition: Bigfoot team had used Chimpamzee pheromone chips in the past in the hopes of luring a creature in. Out of curiosity, I emailed the person who had announced that the results were that of the Chimp's genus. I had asked if a Chimp pheromone chip would be a source for Chimp DNA and the word I got was 'yes,' a pheromone chip can yield Chimp DNA. But the person never said the Kentucky DNA definitely came from a pheromone chip, and I didn't ask, because there no way the person would have the answer to that.

 

As to the rest, there are a couple of Chimpanzee rescue facilities in Kentucky. So bottom line is how Chimp DNA got into a Kentucky forest, and under a large wood structure and into the soil at around the time the Expedition: Bigfoot team showed up on the site is anyone's guess. I mean, what are the chances of that kind of a coincidence happening?

 

I believe that they used the same Sasquatch pheromone chips that were used for the Skookum Expedition.  I was curious as to the specific type of ape that is used as the pheromone source, so I reached out to the company.  If they respond back with ‘chimpanzee’, I will let everyone know.

[Darby Orcutt]

6 minutes ago, BlackRockBigfoot said:

I believe that they used the same Sasquatch pheromone chips that were used for the Skookum Expedition.  I was curious as to the specific type of ape that is used as the pheromone source, so I reached out to the company.  If they respond back with ‘chimpanzee’, I will let everyone know.

That would be interesting to know. Thank you.

 

I did also find an additional detail that I had not seen before from Dr. Mayor in a newspaper article, and this perhaps answers the question I thought should be obvious from the sequencing data: they apparently identified the sample as *actual* chimpanzee rather than just related to chimpanzee: “The DNA findings do not suggest a new species, but rather a match to known species of chimpanzee,” she said. “Because there are no known non-human primates in North America this is an extremely surprising find, and one that warrants further investigation.” Source: https://www.nkytribune.com/2021/03/kentuckys-deep-forests-could-hide-piece-of-the-bigfoot-puzzle-investigators-discover-possible-dna/

 

If this is correct, it seems evident that the source would *have* to be either a pheromone chip, an escapee, a deliberate hoax, and/or...is there another possibility I'm missing? A non-native feral chimp population in KY? That would seem very far less likely than the other options...

 

[hiflier]

^^^Excellent lines of thinking and deduction. It would appear that ruling out any or all options would be the next logical step. Shall we pick one to get started?

 

1) Pheromone chip

2) Escapee

3) Deliberate hoax

4) Feral chimp in the area that the soil samples were taken from. If that was the case, then a fairly recent presence would be noteworthy judging from the fact that the soils samples showed genus Pan troglodyte. So apparently the samples were not all that degraded, if they were degraded at all.

Edited February 6, 2022 by hiflier

[Foxhill]

27 minutes ago, hiflier said:

^^^Excellent lines of thinking and deduction. It would appear that ruling out any or all options would be the next logical step. Shall we pick one to get started?

 

1) Pheromone chip

2) Escapee

3) Deliberate hoax

4) Feral chimp in the area that the soil samples were taken from. If that was the case, then a fairly recent presence would be noteworthy judging from the fact that the soils samples showed genus Pan troglodyte. So apparently the samples were not all that degraded, if they were degraded at all.

Do we know where the sample came from and who submitted it?

Is there any provenance of the chain of custody of the sample?

[Darby Orcutt]

17 minutes ago, hiflier said:

^^^Excellent lines of thinking and deduction. It would appear that ruling out any or all options would be the next logical step. Shall we pick one to get started?

 

1) Pheromone chip

2) Escapee

3) Deliberate hoax

4) Feral chimp in the area that the soil samples were taken from. If that was the case, then a fairly recent presence would be noteworthy judging from the fact that the soils samples showed genus Pan troglodyte. So apparently the samples were not all that degraded, if they were degraded at all.

I don't know that we could work this puzzle much if any further without more information about the analyses and precise findings themselves. Prior to the above, we would have to confirm that:

1) The lab result itself is correct, and

2) That the quotes given in this and other articles are a correct representation of what Dr. Mayor and others actually said (I'm a bit concerned about this, as some of the media reports seem muddled.)

 

The Wayne Lab at UCLA's web site notes their work of interpreting sequence results. IDK if this means that they are relying on other labs, even commercial labs, to do the actual analyses of samples. Especially if the chimpanzee sequences were found in only one sample, then accidental contamination at the lab needs to be ruled out too.

 

I reached out to the individual you noted as running the lab, but she left UCLA in June. I will hope to hear from Dr. Mayor at some point (privately or publicly).

 

As I write this, I see Foxhill's question about chain of custody - which would be very helpful to know when considering the possibility of contamination and/or hoax.

 

The upshot as I see it: more information is needed, and almost entirely only information that the folks directly involved could provide.

 

Regardless, thanks, all, for what you've shared!

 

 

 

 

[hiflier]

I'll look through my emails and check out any lab info. I think my last email may have been in April or May of 2021, apparently just before she left the institution. I find her leaving a bit odd as everything I researched about her and the UC system's CALeDNA program gave me the impression that she was quite proud of the program as well as her work. But people move on when opportunity knocks, especially young people of which she was one.

 

I had written to Ms. Ramos after I saw the article on the Travel Channel's website that quoted her. When I asked her for more details she said she couldn't provide any until after the episode aired on March 28, 2021. My thought at the time was that, being young, maybe she slipped up and spoke publicly too soon and got herself into some hot water, because at the time, I thought the timing of her being quoted in the article to be a bit odd as she did sort of she did scoop the episode as well as Dr. Mayor in the process. But it got printed so was probably part of the marketing plan for the episode as well as having more people purchase a Discovery+ subscription to watch the March 28 show.

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by hiflier

[hiflier]

38 minutes ago, Foxhill said:

Do we know where the sample came from and who submitted it?

Is there any provenance of the chain of custody of the sample?

 

A forest in eastern Kentucky and the sample, actually Ms. Ramos told me there were three samples submitted, was received through the mail after being sent by Dr. Mayor. I was always curious why Dr. Todd Disotell didn't get the samples as evidently Dr. Mayor knew Dr. Meldrum pretty well. And since Dr. Mayor is a primatologist she must have known that Dr. Disotell was, and is, an expert on primate evolutionary genetics and has worked with supposed Sasquatch DNA samples, like from the nests in Washington State, worked on the 10 million dollar BF Bounty show, and has done numerous BF podcast interviews as a genetic expert. Strange that.

Edited February 6, 2022 by hiflier

[Foxhill]

2 minutes ago, hiflier said:

 

A forest in eastern Kentucky and the sample, actually Ms. Ramos told me there were three samples submitted, was received through the mail after being sent by Dr. Mayor. I was always curious why Dr. Todd Disotell didn't get the samples as evidently Dr. Mayor knew Dr. Meldrum pretty well. And since D. Mayor is a primatologist she must have known that Dr. Disotell was the who was, and is, an expert on primate evolutionary genetics. Strange that.

So no exact location, to bad 

 Did Dr. Mayor harvest the samples personally?

[hiflier]

I did watch the episode and it did show her placing one sample into a vial but it could have just been for dramatic effect. That's why I had asked if only one sample has been submitted.

 

One thing of note: She stated both in the article and in her email that over 3,000 reads were done on the samples. Reads are the same as cycles and when a lab does a polymerase chain reaction (PCR) process it amplifies a sample by creating many copies of the DNA sequences that are submitted in a given sample. In most cases, the cycles or reads can run into the many thousands, 100's of thousands, or even millions, depending on the level of amplification. So even though over 3,000 reads sounds like a lot of sequence amplification/duplication, it really isn't all that much. At the time, Ms. Ramos said that more samples would be need in order to verify the results. I have never heard that any more samples were collected from the site. From Kentucky the EB team took off and went somewhere else and so if they ever went back to Kentucky for more soil sampling I am not aware of it.

Edited February 6, 2022 by hiflier

[Foxhill]

2 minutes ago, hiflier said:

I did watch the episode and it did show her placing one sample into a vial but it could have just been for dramatic effect. That's why I had asked if only one sample has been submitted.

All good...did a little research on the Dr. and I've reached my conclusion, which is really irrelevant.

It's chimp DNA, doesn't really matter how it got there (to the lab). 

[hiflier]

3 minutes ago, Foxhill said:

It's chimp DNA, doesn't really matter how it got there (to the lab).

 

Agreed. Though one would think that if that was the result then going back to the site should be somewhat of a priority? But Chimp is Chimp which isn't what the team was looking for. Bet they were as surprised as we were

[Darby Orcutt]

1 minute ago, hiflier said:

 

Agreed. Though one would think that if that was the result then going back to the site should be somewhat of a priority? But Chimp is Chimp which isn't what the team was looking for. Bet they were as surprised as we were

It depends. If your interest is only in a potential undiscovered "Bigfoot" species, then a chimp finding is disappointing.

 

If your interest is in looking for explanations, whatever they may be, for alleged Sasquatch evidence, then confirming a chimp presence in eastern KY might suggest answers to some eyewitness reports or other potential evidence.

 

Either way, the many question marks with regard to this finding perhaps highlights more than anything the gulf generally found between scientific research and media productions, although each has its purpose and place.

[Foxhill]

5 minutes ago, hiflier said:

 

Agreed. Though one would think that if that was the result then going back to the site should be somewhat of a priority? But Chimp is Chimp which isn't what the team was looking for. Bet they were as surprised as we were

Your much kinder than me, but I'll try.....a primatologist is given/harvest samples to test, and they come back as chimp.

 There are really only two choices in my mind contamination or hoax.

She handles primates or is in close contact with them on a regular basis, I'm going to assume her outdoor gear is not the stuff that one would keep super clean, boots, gloves, jackets ect......pretty easy to see how contamination would occur.

 I also saw on her website she has exotic pets, it didn't list what they were.