Is The Skookum Cast Still Considered To Be A Potential Bigfoot Lay?

[Guest LAL]

Thanks for the video - it led me to this:

Note all the pawing and how it gets up.

[Guest 127]

LAL: So how does that apply to the skookum impression? (also noted: your refusal to answer if it was a possible elk impression or impossible to be one)

Edited October 20, 2011 by 127

[Guest LAL]

The elk tracks were transiting:

Putative heel strikes:

Possible forearm print:

Now there's an elk lay - and a helicopter to lift it out:

[Guest RayG]

RayG: Ungulates can roll slightly to one side and push up onto their hind legs and then onto their wrists and push off in any direction leaving no tracks in the center of the impression.

It's LAL that's unconvinced, not me.

...and I never got a blow by blow, a graphic or a reasonable explanation of how this could be accomplished.

Similarly, I've never seen a reasonable explanation for how the achilles could be so detailed unless the leg was lying flat against the ground/mud, or sunk a great distance into the mud. Since the heel isn't sunk that deeply (vertically), and the distance from the main body of the cast to the 'heel' impression seems quite short, I'm left with a logical conundrum. How was the supposed sasquatch able to bend its leg in such a weird manner? Does it have a mid-tarsal break in the middle of the shin?

It's generally accepted that elk and other ungulates don't need to get their legs under them in order to get up? Huh?

It's been pointed out a number of times already. Try checking with someone like Mark Elbroch. He should know.

Should I post Dr. Meldrum's "cartoon"?

It wouldn't refute the fact that elk can rise without placing their footprints where you think they should. Besides, using a cartoon as evidence? Really?

Do we have videos of elk and other ungulates getting up in some unusual way? LTK had a good video of an elk rolling out of a puddle but it still had to gather its legs under itself in order to stand. What other way or ways are there to do it?

I don't live anywhere near herds of elk, but hopefully Pragmatic Theorist will obtain some of the further evidence he mentioned in that very same post.

RayG

[Guest Crowlogic]

Actually Saskeptic's post pretty much shoots the bigfoot made the impression full of buckshot. There is no reason, logical or otherwise that a supposedly intelligent stealthy biped would meander to that spot, fall for the ruse of the fruit then get off it's feet to take the fruit. But where are the bigfoot tracks? It had to get there and it had to leave. Or was this one of the paranormal bigfoot that materializes and zips out at will? Perhaps the paranormal bigfoot have the habit of reclining when dining on fruit. Very Greko/Roman of them I'd say.

[Guest LAL]

LAL: So how does that apply to the skookum impression? (also noted: your refusal to answer if it was a possible elk impression or impossible to be one)

Noted your saying I theorized it would be easy to bait a sasquatch in a mudhole when I didn't and your refusal to point out where I did.

I don't like words like "possible" and "impossible". I think there are good reasons to indicate it wasn't made by an elk but there was no camera at the site and no body parts were left behind so it's "not conclusive".

It (and several other videos) show what bull elks do in a wallow. For one thing they get their legs under them to rise. I haven't found any contortionist calves yet.

[wolftrax]

I'm still registered and I was there. One explanation was that the hoofprints in the middle of the impression were there but sank in the mud. The tendon of Achilles was just slumped in mud. I found those answers......muddy.....and I never got a blow by blow, a graphic or a reasonable explanation of how this could be accomplished. Color me dense, but this from a former teacher? DDA wasn't there to take him on but he sure did on BFF1.

It's generally accepted that elk and other ungulates don't need to get their legs under them in order to get up? Huh? I don't think I'm the only one who thinks there should be hoofprints where I seem to think they should be. Should I post Dr. Meldrum's "cartoon"? Do we have videos of elk and other ungulates getting up in some unusual way? LTK had a good video of an elk rolling out of a puddle but it still had to gather its legs under itself in order to stand. What other way or ways are there to do it?

Why is this even an issue? You've seen this, you know the source, you know it's from an elk, and you know by looking at it that elk can rise without leaving a track within the impression:

This was from just the other day. Did you forget? Or is it just customary to keep recycling old arguments even though they've been shown to not be accurate?

[Guest 127]

(snipped to save bandwidth)

LAL: The image you posted:

That is from the elk wrist. Notice how the impression is smeared to one side? That is likely from the elk exiting and pushing off on the wrists in the mud to the side (which is how it did not leave tracks in the impression!) You can see the direction of movement in that wrist impression alone. I don't even know why I'm explaining this anymore. You know it. You just refuse to acknowledge anything other than what supports your theory.

I think many here would love to see some type of illustration of how the alleged bigfoot made the impression. This has been explained to you in the elk scenario in great detail with graphics and a similar video. I've yet to see any applicable explanation of the alleged bigfoot impression.

Please by all means (if you can!) show us how the bigfoot came to be there, and how it left. Those impressions that were outlined by the BFRO do not coincide with the figure they have illustrated and could not have left those impression - much less entered or exited leaving no other impressions.

This:

Did not make this:

Completely bogus. Also there is also no explaination of how the subject entered or left with those impressions.

[Guest 127]

Noted your saying I theorized it would be easy to bait a sasquatch in a mudhole when I didn't and your refusal to point out where I did.

I don't like words like "possible" and "impossible". I think there are good reasons to indicate it wasn't made by an elk but there was no camera at the site and no body parts were left behind so it's "not conclusive".

It (and several other videos) show what bull elks do in a wallow. For one thing they get their legs under them to rise. I haven't found any contortionist calves yet.

Hardly "not conclusive". Actually its quite conclusive. So you want to show "bull elks" (even though it was likely a smaller sized elk around the size of a large deer) leaving a wallow in a certain way that you like, not in a similar way to what may have happened? I'm not sure why you think its relevant but ok. Do you admit that an elk can leave a body impression and exit without stepping into it?

Also is it not your theory that the BFRO team did exactly that? Am I mistaken? (bait a sasquatch into a mudhole)

Edited October 20, 2011 by 127

[Guest LAL]

Since the heel isn't sunk that deeply (vertically), and the distance from the main body of the cast to the 'heel' impression seems quite short, I'm left with a logical conundrum. How was the supposed sasquatch able to bend its leg in such a weird manner?

Didn't I mention scooting? Check out gorilla feeding videos. They move around quite a bit even while sitting.

Crow, there's an account of a juvenile belly crawling to get food. Maybe this is just something sasquatches do even when they've grown to 9'. Grown dogs lick faces which is just a leftover puppy gesture to get the mother to regurgitate food.

Why would a grown male need to be elusive between the hours of 3 and 6 AM when all the pesky people were quietly in their tents? If it had been watching them fro the treeline it would have known they were gone. Several species from predators to chimpanzees have shown an awareness of their tracks and may deliberately plant them to leave sign for others to follow or avoid leaving them if possible. A chimp Dr. Meldrum was using to leave tracks in a sandbox took to erasing them so he could do it again and not have to go back to his cage.

Apparently the purported sasquatch sat to eat the fruit and spewed bits around. That's very higher primatelike but not very elklike. What ruse was there to fall for? There was no trap, no camera - just some interesting looking food type stuff that might be worth investigating.

127, I said I haven't found any contortionist calf videos. Let me know when you do. If the elk that made the impression DDA photographed (if that's what made the impression) rolled out of it and stood the marks could have been obscured by the broken up ground. Maybe he'll fill us in - if he ever returns. There may be something in one of the threads. I don't see torn up ground right around the Skookum impression.

The team members were hoping for fresh clear tracks in the mud. That's why they placed the fruit there. There were other fruit piles elsewhere. Didn't you read the field notes?

[Guest 127]

LAL: of course I've read the notes of many of those that were present. I've researched this quite a bit and I know you have too. I have enjoyed the debate with you and I think we've reached about as much discussion as we can on it. I may post more in rebuttals - but I think we've reached our own conclusions and they are quite different.

Some of the points you make are bogus though. For instance that elk do not make a mess when they eat apples. Also, there were many animals present in that mud. (backed up with physical evidence, not just opinion) In the same breath you say why should a grown male need to be elusive between the hours of 3 and 6 am and then say that the sasquatch allegedly out of caution and to be elusive performs some interesting maneuver (yet to be described or illustrated) and sits in the mud to be in order to pick up some apples. Meanwhile, the elk impression shows a clear outline of an elk, and there are tracks leading up to and away from the imprint. BTW no need for any "contortion" moves for an elk to have made this impression. You've already been linked to a video with a similar exit, and photos of elk impressions with no footprints in the center.

You've yet to do the same for bigfoot. (or show any entrance or exit tracks or marks) Did it levitate in and out? Roll? How? There are no "belly crawl marks" and I supposed the bigfoot belly crawled in a floating technique that the sasquatch have mastered.

Anyhow - Cheers and thank you for the debate. I fail to see how any scientists stand behind this as bigfoot evidence. Complete malarkey. (IMHO) I'm also disappointed in the involved parties and in Dr Meldrum for what I see as a failure in academic standards. This could be corrected, but I doubt it ever will be. Their reputations and pride wont allow it. (again IMHO)

[wolftrax]

127, I said I haven't found any contortionist calf videos. Let me know when you do. If the elk that made the impression DDA photographed (if that's what made the impression) rolled out of it and stood the marks could have been obscured by the broken up ground. Maybe he'll fill us in - if he ever returns. There may be something in one of the threads. I don't see torn up ground right around the Skookum impression.

So the elk placed it's feet outside of the impression, just like this:

The whole feet in impression argument is now out.

[Guest LAL]

I'll have to do a scan to show what the peel looked like.

Other tracks. Note the arrows showing direction.

The "cartoon" (I'm not the one who originally referred to it with that term):

[Guest RayG]

Didn't I mention scooting?

What evidence is there of scooting? Shouldn't there be some sort of recognizable butt impression a greater distance from the heel if that were the case?

The image you provided earlier in the thread shows the supposed squatch with a bent knee leaving the heel print...

...but that can't be the correct angle for the impression that was left behind. The leg had to have been lying flat, or more fully extended. Yet there's no evidence of that either, because of the relative distance to the main body print of the impression.

Further, in the closeup shot of the heel/Achilles tendon on page 117 of LMS, the supposed squatch tendon is much thinner, and much more pronounced than that of the human comparison next to it. Why would such a massive bipedal creature have such a thin Achilles tendon? This thin tendon is again shown in the picture on page 121, and it may be an optical illusion, but the tendon/heel being held by Dr. Swindler in that photo seems to have a bit of a curve in it.

And where is the evidence for the distinct ankle anatomy that Dr. Meldrum mentions on page 120?

RayG

[Guest LAL]

....the tendon/heel being held by Dr. Swindler in that photo seems to have a bit of a curve in it.

Didn't DDA explain that somewhere? Rubber molds can do that. Maybe the mud did slump.

There were multiple heel strikes. Since I don't have the cast on hand (I'd do some drawings of my own if I did) we may have to settle for an old thread where the angle was discussed. However it's late here and I'm tired.

That squished up mud at :34 may be evidence of scooting. Rick explains and demonstrates how the animal may have positioned itself to reach for the fruit and does some measuring. Note the apple bits, the elk tracks and the coyote tracks.

In case anyone hasn't figured out how to watch this yet, click the arrow.