Is The Skookum Cast Still Considered To Be A Potential Bigfoot Lay?

[Guest]

Anybody who cannot tell the difference between elk hair (hollow) and primate hair should not be taken seriously! The presence of elk hair doesn't mean much, since there are elk tracks there, why not hair too? The issue is other non-elk primate hair. Not coyote hair, chipmunk hair, etc.

[Guest LAL]

LAL: The same way many other ungulates do. They can get up in many different ways and when spooked can do some things you would find quite amazing. Is it your opinion that this impression is impossible to be an elk? Or do you think it is a possible elk impression? Lets be clear.

I'm with the researchers who found and cast the impression and the scientists who examined it. I read all of desertyeti's posts concerning the cast on two forums and while he supplied a technical explanation of how elk in general get up he never really answered the question of how that particular elk got out of the impression without messing it up. He too seemed to think it's amazing what an animal can do but didn't explain the mechanics. I think it was stated there were hoofprints in the right places but they vanish in the mud. He's an ichnologist working in industry, BTW, after three years of teaching at Northeastern in Chicago.

I have three hardcover copies of Jeff's book, one Google eBook, LMS on tape and DVD, Chris Murphy's Meet the Sasquatch, Rick Noll's presentation at WCS 2003 on DVD and memories of a phone conversation with Jimmy Chilcutt. I don't know if Dr, Wroblewski's paper was ever published but I don't have that. These are what he examined and photographed - not the original:

The copies were made by artists in B.C. and do not have the surface detail of the original cast. There were peels made of some of that. There are pictures in Jeff's book that show the hair flow is wrong for an elk.

Expedition members hoped to get clear footprints in the muddy area. There were several spots where they left fruit. Sometime after the members retired to their tents for the night something got the fruit. After a vocalization that outblasted the call blaster the night before, possible prints and tree breakage that didn't seem to be due to weather, a recent face to face encounter with a retired wildlife officer and a long history of sightings and other events in the county I'd say it's possible there was a sasquatch in the area and it took the fruit but I don't think it would be easy to bait one with apples in a mudhole. Apparently someone has tried it in the same location since without success.

George Schaller is quite familiar with ungulates as well as gorillas in Africa and did not think an ungulate could have made the impression.

Hoax was ruled out too. See the chapter in Dr. Meldrum's book.

[Guest]

I've avoided posting in this thread so far, but I have to say that its title is simply begging to be the subject of crude jokes....

[Guest Primate]

Thank you LAL ,

Your committment , expertise and sound logical arguements on this issue has convinced me of it's authenticity.

[georgerm]

Anybody who cannot tell the difference between elk hair (hollow) and primate hair should not be taken seriously! The presence of elk hair doesn't mean much, since there are elk tracks there, why not hair too? The issue is other non-elk primate hair. Not coyote hair, chipmunk hair, etc.

Was primate hair found?

[Guest LAL]

Thank you LAL ,

Your committment , expertise and sound logical arguements on this issue has convinced me of it's authenticity.

Wow! Thank you. You may be the first person I've ever convinced of anything ever.

All credit to Rick Noll for noticing the imprint in the first place, casting it, storing the cast, obtaining elk legs and answering endless questions on message boards without blowing his stack.

I notice no one has picked up on these alleged e-mails from Brian Smith. Sounds like he has issues.

[Guest 127]

You didn't say it 127, i brought it up after you said......

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127, on 18 October 2011 - 01:14 PM, said:

You also must believe that the bigfoot performed some neat gymnastics and that it left no hairs in the mud despite leaving excellent hair impressions that had elk hairs in it.

=========

You insinuated quite clearly that the Elk Hair found was within the " Hair impressions " and the " Hair impressions " are located within the area that is thought to be the " Buttock area ", like i pointed out..

I now note that you are now saying you don't know where within the Cast the Elk Hair was found & that i should ask Dr Meldrum if i want to know..

The lack of supposed Sasquatch Hair is a different matter entirely to above & a different argument.

Surely the question of where the Elk Hair was found could help sway this whole thing big time in favor of " Elk " if the Hairs that were found were found in the area i'm talking about, that had actual Hair impressions, wouldn't it ??

I totally agree BobbyO. That is likely why those details have never been released. I have asked Dr Meldrum for those details by the way. No response as of today. It is probably quite an embarrassment and a subject that he'd rather not address publically. (pure speculation - but hey he has so far refused to address it and he's been asked even recently by me)

I will of course post any reponse given if it should happen. (but do not hold your breath!) Meldrum has nothing positive to gain by releasing those details at this point.

Edited October 19, 2011 by 127

[Guest 127]

I'm with the researchers who found and cast the impression and the scientists who examined it. I read all of desertyeti's posts concerning the cast on two forums and while he supplied a technical explanation of how elk in general get up he never really answered the question of how that particular elk got out of the impression without messing it up. He too seemed to think it's amazing what an animal can do but didn't explain the mechanics. I think it was stated there were hoofprints in the right places but they vanish in the mud. He's an ichnologist working in industry, BTW, after three years of teaching at Northeastern in Chicago.

I have three hardcover copies of Jeff's book, one Google eBook, LMS on tape and DVD, Chris Murphy's Meet the Sasquatch, Rick Noll's presentation at WCS 2003 on DVD and memories of a phone conversation with Jimmy Chilcutt. I don't know if Dr, Wroblewski's paper was ever published but I don't have that. These are what he examined and photographed - not the original:

The copies were made by artists in B.C. and do not have the surface detail of the original cast. There were peels made of some of that. There are pictures in Jeff's book that show the hair flow is wrong for an elk.

Expedition members hoped to get clear footprints in the muddy area. There were several spots where they left fruit. Sometime after the members retired to their tents for the night something got the fruit. After a vocalization that outblasted the call blaster the night before, possible prints and tree breakage that didn't seem to be due to weather, a recent face to face encounter with a retired wildlife officer and a long history of sightings and other events in the county I'd say it's possible there was a sasquatch in the area and it took the fruit but I don't think it would be easy to bait one with apples in a mudhole. Apparently someone has tried it in the same location since without success.

George Schaller is quite familiar with ungulates as well as gorillas in Africa and did not think an ungulate could have made the impression.

Hoax was ruled out too. See the chapter in Dr. Meldrum's book.

LAL: I respect your opinion - but obviously disagree. This is one of the reasons I wish Meldrum would step up and revise his findings on this matter. His loyal fan base will continue to believe this to be a bigfoot impression as long as he states it is so. I'm quite sure if he revised his position to ungulate impression, I suspect you and others would be happy to drop the theory and embrace it. This is where I lose respect for Meldrum - for what in my opinion is a lack of integrity in the matter.

I'm curious would you choose to ignore an updated status by Meldrum on this or if you would continue to say bigfoot impression if he changed his mind?

Also you didn't answer - do you think it is impossible to be an elk impression? Possible?

Edited October 19, 2011 by 127

[BobbyO]

Was primate hair found?

Primate Hair was found yes, but i of course it could have been that of the people that were there, as they are Primates too..

I think it was Henner F who said something along the lines of " After studying the Primate Hair from within the Cast, i didn't add it to my collection of what i believe to be Sasquatch Hairs, that i already have "..

Does anyone recall something like that ??

[BobbyO]

Ok, i found this...

I was close..

Check the very bottom of this link..

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/skookum-cast-hair.htm

[Guest 127]

Was primate hair found?

This is what Fahrenbach had to say in 2010 about the one primate hair found at the skookum cast.

Fahrenbach 2010:

The Skookum story is a long way in the past and all I remember [is] that the one or two hairs that came to me from it had no compelling value. I don't even remember if it came out as Sasquatch hair, but I dimly remember that it didn't. In any case, my Sasquatch hair collection, which contains only what I consider authentic examples, does not contain the Skookum case.

Edited October 19, 2011 by 127

[Guest RayG]

I read all of desertyeti's posts concerning the cast on two forums and while he supplied a technical explanation of how elk in general get up he never really answered the question of how that particular elk got out of the impression without messing it up.

Nor should he have to. It's generally accepted that elk, deer, and other ungulates can arise without leaving hoof prints where you seem to think they should be, so why does he or anyone else have to explain a 'particular' instance of an ungulate doing this? You've got multiple copies of LMS, did you ever get around to reading Mammal Tracks and Sign, by Mark Elbroch? Specifically page 779. It was one of the references Dr. Wroblewski used in his writeup.

I don't know if Dr, Wroblewski's paper was ever published but I don't have that.

Don't know if he ever had it published in Ichnos, but his writeup on the Skookum cast that was posted to the earlier version of the BFF can still be found over on the JREF, though I don't know if you have to be registered to access it.

RayG

[Guest 127]

Nor should he have to. It's generally accepted that elk, deer, and other ungulates can arise without leaving hoof prints where you seem to think they should be, so why does he or anyone else have to explain a 'particular' instance of an ungulate doing this? You've got multiple copies of LMS, did you ever get around to reading Mammal Tracks and Sign, by Mark Elbroch? Specifically page 779. It was one of the references Dr. Wroblewski used in his writeup.

Don't know if he ever had it published in Ichnos, but his writeup on the Skookum cast that was posted to the earlier version of the BFF can still be found over on the JREF, though I don't know if you have to be registered to access it.

RayG

RayG: Ungulates can roll slightly to one side and push up onto their hind legs and then onto their wrists and push off in any direction leaving no tracks in the center of the impression. It appears to me that this particular elk did something similar to that. You can even see where the hind legs were resting on the ground and where the hoofs may have pushed off. (there are slight impressions of the hoof present at the end of the hing legs)

The orange prints circled in green.

Perhaps in a similar manor to

. (although i do not believe this is the exact "move" the elk in the impression - it is a similar movement)

[Guest LAL]

I'm still registered and I was there. One explanation was that the hoofprints in the middle of the impression were there but sank in the mud. The tendon of Achilles was just slumped in mud. I found those answers......muddy.....and I never got a blow by blow, a graphic or a reasonable explanation of how this could be accomplished. Color me dense, but this from a former teacher? DDA wasn't there to take him on but he sure did on BFF1.

It's generally accepted that elk and other ungulates don't need to get their legs under them in order to get up? Huh? I don't think I'm the only one who thinks there should be hoofprints where I seem to think they should be. Should I post Dr. Meldrum's "cartoon"? Do we have videos of elk and other ungulates getting up in some unusual way? LTK had a good video of an elk rolling out of a puddle but it still had to gather its legs under itself in order to stand. What other way or ways are there to do it?

[Guest 127]

Still waiting for the primate/bigfoot explainations with such detail or a demonstration.

Also, I posted a video above of a similar exit.

Edited October 20, 2011 by 127