N A W A C - Field Study Discussion

[Guest]

Have you tried different types of remote cameras? 

 

Different models, yes, but the same types of mechanisms. We've discussed the possibility of using a manually triggered SLR-type camera with a visible flash (no electronics, no IR, trip-wire trigger) but we haven't put anything like that together as of yet.

 

I was thinking about something like a camera that does not use flash or IR. FLIR (thermal)? Maybe a mechanical cam that snaps a photo automatically every 5 seconds so no motion detector is needed....

 

We have cameras called Plot Watchers that take images at a preset interval regardless of motion (once a second — they don't even have motion triggers) but they only work in daylight. They produce MOUNTAINS of images to sort through. I've never seen a thermally activated game camera before. Bet that would be expensive and chew through batteries like crazy.

 

I suppose you have had this conversation before. 

 

Yep. All kinds of ways. The reality is, care and feeding of cameras (placing them, maintaining them, replacing batteries, reviewing the images — more labor-intensive for the Plot Watchers) has taken a backseat to the collection of behavioral data and, ultimately, a specimen. We don't believe at this point that an image will suffice (as has been discussed many times) and we're focusing our finite resources where we think they'll do the most good. 

 

What about human-associated smells? Maybe there is a smell, plastic, ozone, something...

 

Primates do not have especially good olfactory senses. It's likely they smell better than us since their noses are larger and could potentially have more receptors in them (plus, they're not subject to environmental degradation like we are), but I'd be very surprised to find they can smell the plastic or electronics like bears can. I think in general their ability to smell is vastly overrated in the community. 

 

What about hiding them inside hollow logs with just a hole for the lens to see through? Has that been tried? 

 

To some degree, yes, but you still need to expose the flash and sensors, etc. Again, not a current priority. 

[Painthorse]

I keep an eye out for off the wall things that repeat no matter who the source is. Things like this quote below, which I missed in my previous post, just don't happen by chance and a little too coincidental to pass up mentioning.

 

 

Debri rain!!!!

Debri rain, good name for that. I had that happen a few years ago experimenting with a 2 way mirror hanging from a tree and giving off a reflection from a light as it turned in the breeze. Had the camcorder going and captured the sound of a handful of rocks whizzing by that hit the grill a couple feet behind me. Totally unexpected, if my hand had not been through the camcorder strap, the cam would have been thrown to the ground.

[Guest]

Debris rain happened to the top of my tent one night...

 

Since we've never directly observed them doing it (we can't get out of the cabin quickly enough) and they stay away when the IR cameras are activated, we can only make presumptions as to how it's accomplished. We do believe it's ape behavior, for sure, but unlike rock tosses, we've never even seen the debris fall through the air. At least we have recordings of it. 

 

It's interesting to me that, like some other things we've experienced, what appears to be novel actually has been documented by others if you dig deeply enough (or ask the right people). Another instance like this is when we documented them making odd gurgling or swishing sounds with with their mouths during Endurance (2011). Nobody had heard of that behavior before, but some internet research found multiple accounts, one that was very old. 

[Painthorse]

Bipto, couple questions. I've tried my best to follow the threads here but I can't remember if this has been covered already so my apologies if already mentioned.

How many years has the team been on the same site?

Have you experienced that some years are more active than others? Especially 09 - 11?

Have you posted any deep moan, howls from the area. If yes where can I access them to compare with what I have recorded?

Have you and the team gathered any data/reports that would show a travel corridor along the mountain ranges and ridges?---> I guess what I'm trying to ask is that when activity slows down at X, are there other areas along the same mountain range that experiences activity?

[Guest]

Driveroperator has had "debris rain" pepples thrown at his tent (caught on audio) several times when setting up a solo camp in the Ouachitas , sometimes left as "abandoned" with recorder going and a thermal. Also his truck as been pelted with it pinging off the metal on audio in other SE oklahoma locations when doing a solo camp thing.

[Drew]

He has also had Propane tanks stolen by a family of Bigfoots from the bed of his pickuptruck.

 

While he was in the cab, with insulation covering the windows, and a broken microphone recorder.

[Guest Robert2]

Since we've never directly observed them doing it (we can't get out of the cabin quickly enough) and they stay away when the IR cameras are activated, we can only make presumptions as to how it's accomplished. We do believe it's ape behavior, for sure, but unlike rock tosses, we've never even seen the debris fall through the air. At least we have recordings of it. 

 

 

 

I'm still hung up on this camera problem. Have you seen any evidence that they approach the cameras when they are NOT activated? 

 

That to me would be a clear indication that they are seeing the IR light on the camera and avoiding it. If they can see it at night, it probably looks like a bright red light to them. 

[Painthorse]

Robert, in ref to the IR on the cams. I'm also leaning towards that possibility that "they can see the IR flash". If you use NV and have someone trigger an IR cam, you can easily see the IR flash through the NV. It looks like a flash from a traditional non IR cam and covers basically the same field of area.

[Drew]

Painthorse, if it was the flash that was alerting them, then it would be too late, there would be a photo.

 

I understand that sensitivity to the cams by the Wood ape is the diagnosis.

 

But to an outsider looking at it, it looks like someone knows when the cams are on or off.  For example someone is feeding info to someone.

Or the beasts can sense that the IR cams are on or off somehow.

[Painthorse]

Painthorse, if it was the flash that was alerting them, then it would be too late, there would be a photo.

 

I understand that sensitivity to the cams by the Wood ape is the diagnosis.

 

But to an outsider looking at it, it looks like someone knows when the cams are on or off.  For example someone is feeding info to someone.

Or the beasts can sense that the IR cams are on or off somehow.

Gotta disagree with you on that. Cams are NOT dependable. The trigger time varies even on the best cams. These creatures are intelligent to a certain level, and it may only take "once" to walk past a cam and have it trigger once the subject is out of the field of the camera.  An example would be I had 2 cams set, both Stealth cams, one set to take still shots another to take video both aimed at the same bait station but at different angles. The cam that took the still shots triggered and got the bear, the other cam triggered but not until after the bear was out of view.

Do animals know what cams are? No.

But do they connect something that scares them to this "strange box" in the woods that "turns night to a flash of day"? Probably.

[Guest]

How many years has the team been on the same site?

 

Members of our group have been going into the area since 2000. It's only been for the last three summers that we've stayed continuously as long as possible. Prior to that, it was long weekends in and out and we focused on the cameras with the idea being we should be as minimally disruptive as possible. 

 

Have you experienced that some years are more active than others? Especially 09 - 11?

 

Endurance (2011) was the first long-term operation. It was very similar in many ways to Persistence (2012) whereas Relentless (2013) was different. This year, the activity didn't really get going until later in the year. We suppose this is due to a colder and/or wetter spring, but there's no way to know for sure. Once it started, though, there was as much (or perhaps more) activity than in the previous two years.

 

Have you posted any deep moan, howls from the area. If yes where can I access them to compare with what I have recorded?

 

We've posted some audio on this page: http://woodape.org/index.php/our-research/projects/206-oe

 

Have you and the team gathered any data/reports that would show a travel corridor along the mountain ranges and ridges?---> I guess what I'm trying to ask is that when activity slows down at X, are there other areas along the same mountain range that experiences activity?

 

We have no data that suggests that. In fact, we believe them to be present around X year-round. 

He has also had Propane tanks stolen by a family of Bigfoots from the bed of his pickuptruck.

 

While he was in the cab, with insulation covering the windows, and a broken microphone recorder.

 

I'm not aware of the specifics of what you guys are talking about, but it's likely that everyone trying to have experiences with these animals (even us) are either doing things they should not, or not doing things they should, or even misinterpreting their own observations. None of us is perfect. At least those of us in the NAWAC are trying our best to remain objective in how we interpret our observations. 

I'm still hung up on this camera problem. Have you seen any evidence that they approach the cameras when they are NOT activated? 

 

That to me would be a clear indication that they are seeing the IR light on the camera and avoiding it. If they can see it at night, it probably looks like a bright red light to them. 

 

It has been our experience that they will approach at night when the IR cameras are not activated. I believe the IR illuminators are far too bright. We can see them dimly, so to them they're presumably much brighter. I'm with you. 

If you use NV and have someone trigger an IR cam, you can easily see the IR flash through the NV. It looks like a flash from a traditional non IR cam and covers basically the same field of area.

 

Yes, I've pretty much blinded myself by accidentally walking in front of a Reconyx RC-60 with my NV on. Through my NV, the IR illuminators on our cameras light up the area around the cabin like daylight. 

Painthorse, if it was the flash that was alerting them, then it would be too late, there would be a photo.

 

Perhaps. The cameras fire for no good reason all the time. We have many photos of nothing. Also, some of them fire randomly in order to focus, etc. Sort of a self-diagnosis thing. 

 

I understand that sensitivity to the cams by the Wood ape is the diagnosis.

 

But to an outsider looking at it, it looks like someone knows when the cams are on or off.  For example someone is feeding info to someone.

Or the beasts can sense that the IR cams are on or off somehow.

 

When the IR security system is on, it's evidence to anyone who can see the red illuminators. You don't need anyone to feed you information. If, as we surmise, wood ape night vision is far superior to our own, then they would clearly see the illuminators. 

[Drew]

Oh. I didn't realize they were that visible to the naked eye.

[Guest]

Gotta disagree with you on that. Cams are NOT dependable. The trigger time varies even on the best cams.

 

Agreed. I've said it many times here and elsewhere. Even the most expensive cameras are very unreliable. They don't fire when they should and fire when they shouldn't. 

 

These creatures are intelligent to a certain level, and it may only take "once" to walk past a cam and have it trigger once the subject is out of the field of the camera. 

 

Agreed again. I understand how convenient that sounds to those who doubt the existence of these creatures, but I feel the combination of above average smarts, an ability to perceive the flash of the camera, a general wariness and furtive disposition, and unreliable technology (and a dash of unrealistic expectations from those who don't know how this stuff really works) combine to make them very difficult to capture on film using electronic, IR and heat firing game cameras. 

Oh. I didn't realize they were that visible to the naked eye.

 

There are several things we're talking about at the same time. Some game cameras have a visible IR illuminator, some (newer and more expensive ones) don't. The digital security system cameras we've installed all have a ring of relatively bright IR illuminators on them. 

The game cameras illuminate when they're triggered (or occasionally all by themselves to focus) and the security system cameras are illuminated whenever it's dark out and they're activated. 

[Guest Robert2]

Well I think we have solved the mystery of the "no picts with an IR traicam" enigma. It's a tough nut to crack. 

 

Brian, when you go afield in your area, what kind of camera do you carry, and how fast can you get it into position and snap a photo?

 

Has anyone tried one of those small video cams that clips on to the front of a helmet or hat? Like a GoPro Hero cam? 

 

http://www.heartratemonitorsusa.com/gopro-hero3-black.html?productid=gopro-hero3-black&channelid=FROOG&utm_source=CSEs&utm_medium=GoogleShopping&utm_campaign=heartratemonitorsusa&gclid=CNqdyLzb3LgCFUkS7Aodi0AAoA

 

Cheaper price. 

 

http://www.amazon.com/GoPro-CHDHE-301-HERO3-White-Edition/dp/B009TCCTSQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375376295&sr=8-1&keywords=gopro+hero

 

Head strap.

 

http://www.amazon.com/GoPro-Head-Strap-Mount-Cameras/dp/B002PAX9QU/ref=pd_bxgy_p_img_y

Edited August 1, 2013 by Robert2

[Guest]

Drew, on 01 Aug 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

He has also had Propane tanks stolen by a family of Bigfoots from the bed of his pickuptruck.

 

While he was in the cab, with insulation covering the windows, and a broken microphone recorder.

 

 

I'm not aware of the specifics of what you guys are talking about, but it's likely that everyone trying to have experiences with these animals (even us) are either doing things they should not, or not doing things they should, or even misinterpreting their own observations. None of us is perfect. At least those of us in the NAWAC are trying our best to remain objective in how we interpret our observations. 

 

 

Drew, Yes I know the story it was during his encounter with two BF in CNRA (Arbuckles) Central OK.

 

Bipto,

Trying to have experiences? doing things we should not ? mis-interpretation on Drivers story ?. Maybe I am mis understanding you. No tin this example anyway. He played abandoned camp sight with tent set up and food on table but stayed in the cab of his truck with windows covered and used a bionic ear to listen and heard the approach then saw the two BFapproach (one large one smaller) to the back of his vehicle (tent in front of vehicle) in his side mirror then the big one steps up on the back bumper of his F250 and the truck drops down under the weight, the BF was holding the ladder rack too. He heard the clank of some propanes rolling in bed when it stepped onthe back of truck and it went and clanked them together again and must have liked th esound as they came up missing the next day and later that weekend or next night the sound of what could have been the tanks being knocked was possibly heard too. Also he said he saw them as they left the tree line and saw one do a owl call and this may be the only time a mimic may have been seen done. Keep in mind this park was where the late Dr. Charles Hallmark was studying and somewhat habituating with the creatures by leaving Mc Donald food items in the bags in the trash cans which would get retrieved by the BF. Reports came for years afterwards of what apprears to be BF in that park looking for food in the camp trash cans which last time I went many "bear proof" style trash cans had beeen put in...(interesting)

 

Abandonded camp technique/ asleep in the tent camp technique is very productive over and over actually.

 

http://www.leavenworthtimes.com/article/20120117/NEWS/301179858

 

  same area different report

 

http://from-the-shadows.blogspot.com/2007/04/waiting-for-bigfoot.html

http://from-the-shadows.blogspot.com/2007/04/waiting-for-bigfoot-part-2.html

 

Sorry back on topic, lets see.. Bigfoot in Oklahoma ...Yes

Edited August 1, 2013 by GEARMAN