Branco Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 WSA: The tree appears to be a Saw -Tooth Oak. I believe, after enlarging the image, I could see the fine "saw-teeth" edges of the leaves which gave the oak that name. It also appears there are acorn "set" locations on the ends of limbs where the large acorns will grow and mature in the fall. Since the photo was was reportedly made in July, everything seems to fit. If the identification is right, the limbs of the tree are usually very long and fairly straight, but they will make sharp turns if shaded by other trees like the ones shown in the photo. Although limber, the limbs are as tough as snake-bite boots. The diameter of the limb at the saw-off point is about 2" in diameter, based on the measured height of the limb. You are absolutely right about it being a "torsion break" by something using the curve in limb to twist and separate the fibers in the curve. (Kind'a like starting an "A" or "T" model Ford with the hand crank.) It would have taken a heck of a strong man to have twisted off that limb, and if he did, the bark on the part of the limb his hands were placed to apply the torque would be worn smooth. The wider hands of a BF could have twisted off the limb with less noticeable damage simply because less grasping pressure per sq in would be required.
bipedalist Posted October 31, 2015 BFF Patron Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) My brother once ran across a grove of saplings in the Monongahela NF that had been torn up by something big, pretty obviously, to him, an animal. He presumed bear. Bear don't do that, generally. Bear will use their whole body to knock saplings around scratching their backs on them even, how can you say this authoritatively?! Also, a bear will scratch and mark a tree, they will break limbs if they want to, sometimes on purpose and sometimes by accident backing down a tree when one gets in the way. They rub and scratch trees aggressively to mark territory. Of course, they don't grasp the limbs and break them rotationally and torsionally like a primate hand putatively could..... Edited October 31, 2015 by bipedalist
Guest Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) These trees and branches that appear to have been twisted, were more than likely twisted to begin with. Not many trees have a straight grain, most spiral to the left or right. It is not necessary to have hands to create a twisted break on a tree that is already twisted. I'm sure upon closer inspection you will find a spiral grain on most of these "twisted" breaks. Edited October 31, 2015 by Nakani
CMBigfoot Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Report of branch twist, absent any weather event, with photo: http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=21240 Hi WSA, After reading the report and looking at the photos. I'm wondering if this person mowed his yard with a riding lawn mower or tractor with ROPS on it. Because if he did, the ROPS on the riding lawn mower or tractor could of caught the low hanging branch as he mowed around the tree causing the branch to twist and break. I have experienced this several times with my Kubota tractor when I'm mowing to close to one of the White Oak trees that has a low hanging branch.
WSA Posted October 31, 2015 Author Posted October 31, 2015 Cmb and Nakani, oh, granted...it would take a mechanical force of that magnitude, i believe. And sure, I've unintentionally mangled a tree with equipment before. Most result in the aptly named green-stick break. As for breaks having spiral grains evident...all I can say is, based on the 100 or so cords of wood I have hand split in my time, the spiral or reaction wood is where spliiing is the hardest. Breaking, ditto.
Branco Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 I suspect the person who wrote the report is probably the person who maintains the grounds. If, that is a Saw-Toothed oak, he would have danged sure remembered breaking that limb while mowing! Have had seven of those trees on my property for several, and had to removed three of them because the limbs grew so long there was no way to mow between them without losing hair and hide, (I'll check into this a little more.)
Branco Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Just spoke to the man who filed the "twisted limb" report. He had mowed the area the day before, the limb wasn't twisted by him or the mower. He's a big man. When he tried to twist off a similar sized limb, the bark abraded his palms. The tree may not be a Saw-Toothed Oak. He's sending me a photo of a leaf, I'll try to identify the tree. 1
Guest Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Nakani, As for breaks having spiral grains evident...all I can say is, based on the 100 or so cords of wood I have hand split in my time, the spiral or reaction wood is where spliiing is the hardest. Breaking, ditto. If you look at the picture, you can see that the grain spirals around the crook where the branch was broken. You are assuming that the branch was grabbed near the break and twisted, requiring mythological strength. In reality a teenager grabbing the branch closer to the end would easily be able to break it by hanging from it. Also if you want a twist, the ner'dowell teen could be hanging on a branch of the branch, creating the leverage for a twisted break.
Branco Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 OK folks, here's the deal on the tree. In the original photo in the BFRO report, I first thought the bark and limbs on the tree looked like it was a sassafras tree, but all the leaves I could see in the photo were all oblong with no lobes. In magnifying the photo, the edges appeared to have small serrated edges. Those "fine saw-toothed" projections were artifacts from the photos' enlargements. I asked the witness to send me photos of an assortment of the leaves a few minutes ago, which he gladly did. His photos clearly showed the variations between the shapes and sizes of the leaves of a Sassafras which are typical of their species. The tree is definitely a Sassafras, not a Saw-Toothed Oak. He confirmed that the cut limb was roughly one and a half inches in diameter. Sassafras trees are softwoods and the limbs are not as strong or as flexible as hard woods, but the grain of the trunks and limbs have a high degree of resistance against warping, twisting or grain separation even when the wood is fully dry. (Boat paddles made from these trees are now rare, and highly prized for their light weight, non-warping properties and resistance to grain separation.)
WSA Posted October 31, 2015 Author Posted October 31, 2015 Excellent follow-up Branco. It makes sense now...the bark was familiar, but the leaves threw me off. Good to have confirmed it was not a mower incident, thanks. Makes me go..."Hmmmmm...."
CMBigfoot Posted November 1, 2015 Posted November 1, 2015 Hi Branco, When you talked to the man that filed the "twisted limb" report did you find out if his mower has ROPS (roll over protection structure) on it or not? That's what I was wondering. Thanks.
Branco Posted November 1, 2015 Posted November 1, 2015 Hi Branco, When you talked to the man that filed the "twisted limb" report did you find out if his mower has ROPS (roll over protection structure) on it or not? That's what I was wondering. Thanks. I just called him to be sure. He has a small lawn mower with no ROPS. As soon as the Mods approves his membership, I'll defer questions to him. :-) (Treat him right, he deserves respect.) 2
CMBigfoot Posted November 1, 2015 Posted November 1, 2015 I appreciate you finding that out for me. Thanks Branco.
Guest DWA Posted November 1, 2015 Posted November 1, 2015 Common sense says what *I* said: I have broken many things for which the only evidence that I broke it ...was the break. If the break shows evidence that cannot be linked to any cause other than something - with hands - grabbing it and twisting it: THE BREAK IS ENOUGH. If you cannot explain the break...THE BREAK IS ENOUGH to postulate an explanation ...scientists don't accept yet. It would have taken a heck of a strong man to have twisted off that limb, and if he did, the bark on the part of the limb his hands were placed to apply the torque would be worn smooth. The wider hands of a BF could have twisted off the limb with less noticeable damage simply because less grasping pressure per sq in would be required. My earlier point: one isn't looking for evidence above and below the break; the break is enough...and in fact it is MORE LIKELY! that a human would leave such evidence than a sasquatch.
Guest Posted November 1, 2015 Posted November 1, 2015 Why is everyone ignoring the fact that a human could have broken this branch in the same way by hanging on the end of it? This is by far a more likely explanation.
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