Guest Sallaranda Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I had read it the first time Gigantor. Too deep for me, but now I'm going to take a stab at it. Just because they didn't observe something in the test, doesn't completely rule out the existence of extra dimensions from what I can see. This is kinda like disproving a negative here so bare with me. Plus they are testing for Black Holes not actually for Extra Dimensions for one thing. So they merely didn't find a certain result for micro black holes that they think should exist if extra dimensions exist. Right? They state "up to a mass of 3.5–4.5 TeV for a range of theoretical models that postulate extra dimensions.". Now just what does that mean in English? lol To me it sounds like a lack of only certain specific evidence that rules out only certain (range) theoretical models that support extra dimensions. In other words, it doesn't say it rules out "ALL theoretical models ..." and in so doing, it seems to admit there are other models it doesn't rule out. Right? Okay, now I need a nap. Kind of. It means it rules out the vast majority of the generally accepted theoretical models. That's how the word range is used and interpreted in science. Basically it's saying these findings don't disprove just one model, it disproves several. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigantor Posted April 7, 2011 Admin Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) Especially the ones that predicted that the LHC would produce miniature black holes at those energy levels, which is basically all of them, that's why they built the darn thing. So now the physicist will go, "wait! they could occur at higher energy levels..." translation: give us more money and another 20 years. Heck, I can't blame them, I would do the same. Edited April 7, 2011 by gigantor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sallaranda Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Especially the ones that predicted that the LHC would produce miniature black holes at those energy levels, which is basically all of them, that's why they built the darn thing. So now the physicist will go, "wait! they could occur at higher energy levels..." translation: give us more money and another 20 years. Heck, I can't blame them, I would do the same. No it's not. The point of building the LHC was to study how subatomic particles behave at incredible speeds being crashed into each other. It's pivotal in the understanding of physics at one of the most basic level. The results will have impacts on String Theory, Quantum Theory, and numerous other basic theories that will determine the future study of physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Train wreck anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Basically it's saying these findings don't disprove just one model, it disproves several. Yes but not all. That's my point. I'm sure someone will come along with a counter argument to the official findings as well. Of which there may well be very valid counter arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudasBeast Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Train wreck anyone? rotf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sallaranda Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Yes but not all. That's my point. Yes, but the theories that are left intact by these findings are the ones at the extreme ends of the spectrum of the "range" of theories, and are thus highly disputed to begin with and predominately unaccepted amongst the scientific community. That's my analysis of the rhetoric. I'm sure someone will come along with a counter argument to the official findings as well. Of which there may well be very valid counter arguments. That's the beauty of science...especially physics. So little that we know, and so much yet to be learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Okay, I just read the entire scientific paper. Well not really. But from what I did read, it doesn't rule out alternate dimensions at all. Think about it, if that were the case, such a finding would have been all over the news. Instead, it is speaking about a very specific theory under very certain parameters. And while very little of what they state makes much sense to me, I can see no major blockades in the areas of String Theory & Quantum Mechanics here. Otherwise, it would have stated something at the end discounting the existence of alternate dimensions. It doesn't in any way shape or form. In fact, its more about microscopic black holes of a certain type then anything. No train wrecks here as far as I can see. The following is the opening on page one of the paper. "One of the exciting predictions of theoretical models with extra spatial dimensions and low- scale quantum gravity is the possibility of copious production of microscopic black holes in particle collisions at the CERN Large Hadron Collider (LHC) [1, 2]. Models with low-scale gravity are aimed at solving the hierarchy problem, the puzzlingly large difference between the electroweak and Planck scales. In this Letter we focus on microscopic black hole production in a model with large, flat, ex- tra spatial dimensions, proposed by Arkani-Hamed, Dimopoulos, and Dvali, and referred to as the ADD model [3, 4]. This model alleviates the hierarchy problem by introducing n extra dimensions in space, compactified on an n-dimensional torus or sphere with radius r. The mul- tidimensional space-time is only open to the gravitational interaction, while the gauge interac- tions are localized on the 3 + 1 space-time membrane. As a result, the gravitational coupling is enhanced at distances smaller than r, and Newton’s law of gravitation is modified at short distances. The “true†Planck scale in 4 + n dimensions ( MD ) is consequently lowered to the electroweak scale, much smaller than the apparent Planck scale of MPl ∼ 10 16 TeV seen by a 3 + 1 space-time observer. The relationship between MD and MPl follows from Gauss’s law and is given as M2 Pl = 8π Mn+2D rn , using the Particle Data Group (PDG) definition [5]. Such a change in space-time structure and subsequent strengthening of the gravitational field in the ADD model could allow black hole formation in particle collisions at energies greater than MD , rather than MPl , which is the case for a truly 4-dimensional world. Colliding particles would collapse in a black hole if their impact parameter were smaller than the Schwarzschild radius of a black hole with the mass MBH equal to the total energy accessible in the collision. The Schwarzschild radius of a black hole with mass MBH embedded in 4 + n space-time can be found by solving Einstein’s general relativity equations and is given by [6, 7]: " <br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 ok...I don't pretend to understand half of that...I'm cheered however that the folks at Cern are on the job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest COGrizzly Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) Kit... hope all is well. but you seem stressed... that was quite the outburst. not really like you.... Edited April 7, 2011 by COGrizzly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Don't worry Grayjay, I didn't understand much of it either. But it does seem evident that the findings are very finite in their implications to the issue of alternate dimensions as a whole. In other words, the discussion can continue w/o the end of alternate dimensions looming over society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitakaze Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Kit... hope all is well. but you seem stressed... that was quite the outburst. not really like you.... Quite fine, Griz. If you don't see the irony in people who believe in Bigfoot referring to drugs and lunar cycles relating to lunacy in regards to the ideas other people have regarding Bigfoot, that's cool. Just the fact that these people do such textboox scoffing and derision (right down to drugs and insanity) over the alternatives ideas of others yet talk about "scoftics" is enough to make me fall out of my chair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knuck Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Admin, I somehow believe the thread is a total loss. Steam rolls off this stuff on a cold morning. -Knuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyO Posted April 7, 2011 SSR Team Share Posted April 7, 2011 Of course I am of the opinion that those who believe in Physical Bigfoots, and those that believe in Invisible Bigfoots, are in the same boat. What's the name of that Boat Drew ?? & are those " believers " who haven't seen a BF in the same Boat as people who have, or is there yet another different Boat for that & if so, what's that called too ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyO Posted April 7, 2011 SSR Team Share Posted April 7, 2011 And the award for the most self-aware post in the entire thread goes to BobbyO... There are no awards for any Posts written on the BFF last time i checked Kit, just a whole bunch of people's opinions & experiences, but thanks anyway.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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