If I Was To Shoot One

[Rockape]

"Firefight" with a Lion? The Lions were shooting back?

Edited September 17, 2015 by Rockape

[norseman]

Are you questioning Capstick!!!? Why you pinko commie!!

[FarArcher]

I think the disconnect is when a person talks caliber size to me, I'm thinking bullet diameter. A .338 Lapua is faster than a .338 win mag. Absolutely. But it's no where near as fast as a .22-250 or a .220 swift. And even within calibers if you increase the weight of the projectile the FPS is going to decrease. They are inversely proportional, as one goes up the other must come down.

 

Is it possible to make a .338 caliber bullet go faster than a .223 caliber bullet? Obviously yes. But probably not within the confines of a shoulder mounted rifle.

 

A 408 Chey Tac is coming in at a very respectable 3500 fps for a 305 grain bullet and 3000 fps for a 419 grain bullet. In order to get that thing shooting at 4200 FPS? I don't want to be the guy holding on to it, if they attempt to wild cat it further.........

 

At some point it becomes at the least crew served or better yet mounted.

 

And now to talk about velocity vs. penetration concerning hunting rifles, from the article I linked.

 

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.

 

So with dangerous game using solids, the greater velocity  the greater the kinetic force as you stated per mathematical law in physics, the LESS penetration is seen, hence less killing power.

 

So this is a WARNING to everyone reading this. Because this wisdom goes against every thing we see on TV or read in sporting magazines. Everyone wants a rifle that is a super duper ultra magnum magnum that takes traditional calibers and adds velocity, and recoil and cost and unfortunately less killing power. Even with none solids I think bullet technology is lagging far far behind in hunting circles. This is not the military, where I'm required to use ball ammo against soft skin targets, and to heck with the rest of it. There is nothing soft skinned about dangerous game, and I definitely listen to guys like Randy Garrett that have been to Alaska and Africa and been there and done that. When his 45-70 bullets are making lateral pass throughs on Cape Buffalo? It's impressive.

 

Anyhow you were a ARMY LRRP, very very cool! And thank you for your service!

Good points to be sure.  I think there's a significant difference between table ballistics and real world ballistics.

The Army told us the .223/5.56 had an effective killing range of some 400 yards.  Baloney.  Of course one could kill an enemy at 400 yards, but the luck factor would have to be significant.  I noted anything beyond 200 yards was mighty 'iffy.'

 

I just don't agree with the concept of penetration being reduced with increase in velocity - lest the 120mm sabot round our M1-A1's fire would not work.  I know that's an extreme example, but the entire principle of the sabot anti-armor round is velocity to blow through heavy armor without any HE whatsoever.

 

Everyone has their favorite rifles and rounds for the task they endeavor to enjoy.  One of the slowest bullets used for anti-personnel purposes is the .45ACP.  I would shoot them out of a Thompson, and could literally 'see' the bullets, the drop, and easily adjust fire to hit a target at a hundred meters or so.  That really surprised me - being able to see the bullets by their sonic tracks.

 

Back to my point.  That .45ACP is slow, but it likewise imparts most of its energy upon a man - not much is left if and when it exits.

 

I know there are a number of guides in Alaska that use the .45-70, but there are more, for example, that use the .338 WinMag.  Many insist their clients use nothing smaller than a .338 WinMag.  And that would be my smallest caliber if I ever took a shot at a Bigfoot critter.

 

My favorite bullets are North Fork Technologies bullets, and may I kindly suggest you give them a look?  They're expensive, but they deliver more impact, much deeper than anything else I've found, and I'll usually pick up another 120-150fps using these bullets - all other things being equal.  Same powder, same grains, same bullet weight.

 

Yeah, some cartridges are .  .  .  painful.  If I had my druthers, I'd use a .458 WinMag, but it is just  .  .  .  punishing.  I wouldn't hesitate if I had one in my hand, and a good shot presented itself - as I never recall taking the shot, nor notice any recoil when it's a serious matter - but no.  I don't even want to get one of those sighted in. 

 

I enjoy your input.  We agree on so many things, so it's fun to discuss the nuances!

[Drew]

"Firefight" with a Lion? The Lions were shooting back?

 

Remember before the Lions were pushed to the preserves due to urban sprawl and farming, they roamed most of Africa, and were quite scary.  

 

Hunting dangerous game, you have to remember that the animals can kill you if your aim is bad, or your gun jams.  They will kill you no problem.  

[Rockape]

So what kind of heat are the Lions packing?  From that region I'm betting Kalashnikovs.

[norseman]

 

I think the disconnect is when a person talks caliber size to me, I'm thinking bullet diameter. A .338 Lapua is faster than a .338 win mag. Absolutely. But it's no where near as fast as a .22-250 or a .220 swift. And even within calibers if you increase the weight of the projectile the FPS is going to decrease. They are inversely proportional, as one goes up the other must come down.

 

Is it possible to make a .338 caliber bullet go faster than a .223 caliber bullet? Obviously yes. But probably not within the confines of a shoulder mounted rifle.

 

A 408 Chey Tac is coming in at a very respectable 3500 fps for a 305 grain bullet and 3000 fps for a 419 grain bullet. In order to get that thing shooting at 4200 FPS? I don't want to be the guy holding on to it, if they attempt to wild cat it further.........

 

At some point it becomes at the least crew served or better yet mounted.

 

And now to talk about velocity vs. penetration concerning hunting rifles, from the article I linked.

 

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.

 

So with dangerous game using solids, the greater velocity  the greater the kinetic force as you stated per mathematical law in physics, the LESS penetration is seen, hence less killing power.

 

So this is a WARNING to everyone reading this. Because this wisdom goes against every thing we see on TV or read in sporting magazines. Everyone wants a rifle that is a super duper ultra magnum magnum that takes traditional calibers and adds velocity, and recoil and cost and unfortunately less killing power. Even with none solids I think bullet technology is lagging far far behind in hunting circles. This is not the military, where I'm required to use ball ammo against soft skin targets, and to heck with the rest of it. There is nothing soft skinned about dangerous game, and I definitely listen to guys like Randy Garrett that have been to Alaska and Africa and been there and done that. When his 45-70 bullets are making lateral pass throughs on Cape Buffalo? It's impressive.

 

Anyhow you were a ARMY LRRP, very very cool! And thank you for your service!

Good points to be sure.  I think there's a significant difference between table ballistics and real world ballistics.

The Army told us the .223/5.56 had an effective killing range of some 400 yards.  Baloney.  Of course one could kill an enemy at 400 yards, but the luck factor would have to be significant.  I noted anything beyond 200 yards was mighty 'iffy.'

 

I just don't agree with the concept of penetration being reduced with increase in velocity - lest the 120mm sabot round our M1-A1's fire would not work.  I know that's an extreme example, but the entire principle of the sabot anti-armor round is velocity to blow through heavy armor without any HE whatsoever.

 

Everyone has their favorite rifles and rounds for the task they endeavor to enjoy.  One of the slowest bullets used for anti-personnel purposes is the .45ACP.  I would shoot them out of a Thompson, and could literally 'see' the bullets, the drop, and easily adjust fire to hit a target at a hundred meters or so.  That really surprised me - being able to see the bullets by their sonic tracks.

 

Back to my point.  That .45ACP is slow, but it likewise imparts most of its energy upon a man - not much is left if and when it exits.

 

I know there are a number of guides in Alaska that use the .45-70, but there are more, for example, that use the .338 WinMag.  Many insist their clients use nothing smaller than a .338 WinMag.  And that would be my smallest caliber if I ever took a shot at a Bigfoot critter.

 

My favorite bullets are North Fork Technologies bullets, and may I kindly suggest you give them a look?  They're expensive, but they deliver more impact, much deeper than anything else I've found, and I'll usually pick up another 120-150fps using these bullets - all other things being equal.  Same powder, same grains, same bullet weight.

 

Yeah, some cartridges are .  .  .  painful.  If I had my druthers, I'd use a .458 WinMag, but it is just  .  .  .  punishing.  I wouldn't hesitate if I had one in my hand, and a good shot presented itself - as I never recall taking the shot, nor notice any recoil when it's a serious matter - but no.  I don't even want to get one of those sighted in. 

 

I enjoy your input.  We agree on so many things, so it's fun to discuss the nuances!

 

 

I also enjoy a friendly debate concerning firearms, thanks!

 

Your 120mm Gauss comparison is not quite on par. As the Garrett test used wet newspaper to simulate flesh and bone. And a Russian T whatever tank turret is completely steel. I remember talking to a Tank Commander we were moving that was stationed at Ft. Lewis. And at the Yakima proving grounds they would put goats into target decommissioned tanks, close the hatch and shoot them with their M1A1 Abrams. I believe it's a one inch tungsten rod that actually makes the impact on the enemy tank, which punched through both sides of the turret. With glee the Tank crew ran over to the target tank and opened the hatch..........NO GOAT. They actually started finding evidence of the Goat about 50 meters down range. The 120mm sabot round doesn't actually kill the enemy tank crew, sudden decompression and concussion does, it literally pulled the goat through the exit hole, which I'm sure was now bigger than one inch. It would be akin to knocking a window out of 747 jet at 30,000 ft x1000. Another example would be an old Wehrmacht potato masher being dropped into your lap.

 

I would be much more interested to see that 120 mm sabot to not be shot at a steel exoskeleton, but instead at a Brontosaurus, and see what the effects of hitting flesh first then hard bone would be!

 

45 acp - agreed. A great man stopper. I own two 1911's........greatest pistol ever made IMO.

 

45-70 vs 338

If I want to kill a Cape buffalo at 300 yards I'll shoot him with my .338 win mag. If I wound him? I'm parking that rifle and tracking him with my 45-70 guide gun.........no question. At a 100 yards and under to the muzzle the 45-70 with the right ammo is a BEAST. But because it was less velocity at the muzzle means that it's a howitzer. Although in the 1800's calibers like the 45-70 were considered long range rifles. You needed a veneer sight in order to hit anything but it could be done. Higher velocities and better co efficiencies in modern rounds means less guess work and straighter trajectories.

 

North Fork bullets, I'll look into it thanks!

 

"Firefight" with a Lion? The Lions were shooting back?

 

Remember before the Lions were pushed to the preserves due to urban sprawl and farming, they roamed most of Africa, and were quite scary.  

 

Hunting dangerous game, you have to remember that the animals can kill you if your aim is bad, or your gun jams.  They will kill you no problem.  

 

 

The term fire fight generally means rounds going both ways today Drew.

 

I'm sure 100 years ago it meant something different. Just like a lot of other terms I can think of.

[Rockape]

"Return to the long grass" was written in 1987.

[ShadowBorn]

Shot placement is that not what counts. If you place a well placed shot with the right grain and bullet size will it not kill just about anything you can aim at.As long as you can get good penatration does it really matter. Sure distance does matter on rounds but so does stealth.You can go in heavy or you can go in light as long you have a round that will do the job you will be ok.

 

Hand gun is at least for me a last resort when close ness counts. Heavy cal is perfered since you would want to drop the threat quicly. But then in a panic state no one knows how they will react until placed in that situtation.To take one of these creatures down one would have to be stealthy and know how to enter an area with being seen or leaving a trace.

 

Now if given the chance would any of you take the shot? If there is a law in the state that says not to and you have one of these creatures in sight would you still do it? All questions would be answered by a speciemen if one was shot or better yet found dead and brought in.

 

Fararcher

Do you feel that these creatures might be herding these deer in this particular area? Is it posible that they are some how dometicated to man or people on two legs? Does your ATV sound loud or does it have a stealth muffler? I say this since on bikes it is easy to ride up on wild life but not walk up on them. They that when you are on a horse it is even easer since most animals cannot count legs. Do not think that I am picking on you ,just looking for answers thats all.If this was the old forum you would have been grilled, so this forum has changed some what and has been more tolorable.

[FarArcher]

Shadowborn, I had a shot, but not enough gun.  All I had was a 1911 pistol in .45ACP.  His chest was deep like a 55-gallon drum - and that .45 round was only going to irritate him.

 

The only way I take the shot is with enough rifle - a .338 WinMag.  That's me.  I'm tired of having "enough" firepower that somehow isn't enough at the critical moment. 

 

On another thread, I explained my theory of why some animals will drop in place - and others with an identical shot - they'll scoot halfway across the next county.  If at the moment they're hit - and the ballistic shock is imparted - AS the left ventricle has stressed the entire circulatory system - they'll drop on place.  If the moment the heart is in the relaxed state between pumps - unless you disconnect the spine - it's going to leave.

 

And no, I don't think these critters herd deer in a domesticated fashion.  They'll likely knock and rustle to drive deer into those awaiting their arrival.  Come down with that huge forearm on the neck - breaking it, or maybe twist a leg if they have to jump out a distance to grab one, and it's over.

 

The best debilitating shot one can make against a man-type, is a round through the pelvis.  The largest bone in the body, lots of critical things in the immediate area, and that big bone just transfers the shock of the bullet impact so well.  Shattered, the man-type creature will go down, and then a follow-up shot to finish.  That's one thing that doesn't rely on a pressurized circulatory system.

[norseman]

"Return to the long grass" was written in 1987.

And more importantly in his own words, I guess because I'm currently reading the man eaters of Tvaso that I assumed his was giving an account of events that happened 80 years before.

My bad.

[ShadowBorn]

 

Then logically you run a ground with a planet of the apes scenario.

Norseman

I agree , they are not like the dawn of the planet of the apes where they have a shelter in some far off wilderness.  That they are in a clan or even tribal or there would be sign of that and we be all over it by now, No there is more to them that we do not know.

 

I am all for a body to prove that they exist, and we are talking about rifles and hand guns. Bur are they the right tools for bringing one of these down. I have always thought that a bow shot would do it. If there ever was a war between us humans and them it was done with spears and bows.

 

If Fararcher said that the one he saw was barrel chested then that would take a massive bullet to penetrate. A arrow with a good broad head will do just fine. It will go through the body with hope of penetration of the spine. With the hope of dropping the creature on the spot.

 

Now the ones that I seen were not barrel chested but skinny but very muscular. If at the time of a shot the creature tightens up it may be possible  for the bullet to lodge or stop. Not saying they are super men  but because of the muscle mass  that they have built they can tighten up during the shot. With a broad head the arrow just goes through as long as they are sharp. Sorry for the graphic nature of bow hunting.  

 

Fararcher

Thank you for answering.

 

 

 

 

[norseman]

The idea of killing one with a bow is fine in very special circumstances. For example your sitting in your favorite Bear or Deer stand bowhunting and one comes walking along. A broadhead is no joke when it comes to lethality.

But to intentionally go after Squatch with a bow? Not so much..... For a lot of reasons, its unsafe to walk around in rough country with a nocked arrow, its going to snag on everything, if you see something you still have to pull it back then sight it, arrows are known to deflect on foilage.......and most importantly no quick follow up shot.

Your much much better served with a rifle.

[FarArcher]

I assume the purpose of shooting one would be to bring back the body.

 

If I shot one, with whatever, even a large-bore, and he made it into the brush or deeper into the forest - I'll be hanged before I go after him.

 

I'd go after a hundred wounded grizzlies or brown bears in thick, thick stuff before I'd go after a Critter once. 

 

Because I feel very confident that there's a much better than 50/50 chance there is another or more around at any given time.  And I likewise feel confident that they are masters at hiding and ambushing.  I further am confident that these Critters are intelligent, and have a range of emotions - some of which would most likely include revenge and even fury.

 

If one can't ensure sufficient measures are taken to guarantee that it's dropped in place - you're walking where angels fear to tread.  If you're by yourself, even dropping your eyes to either cut off the head or other parts - you've exposed yourself to a quick attack if another is present.  They cover a lot of ground FAST.  They may look big and slow, but that's a mistaken impression.

 

Then you have to egress.  They will track you if others are present.  They will get ahead of you, as they know the trails and road cuts, and can run up or down the most difficult terrain.  And no, I'm not even guessing a little bit on that. 

 

I'm a fair tracker - and after a short while - I observe which leg he pushes off with more, which leg goes over a barrier more, when he meets an obstacle, which side does he prefer to use - and if I'm familiar with the territory, I could break off, take another route - double up my speed, and get to a choke point before he does.  And I'm just fair at it.

 

Tongue-in-cheek, just make sure your affairs are in order, so that in the event you breach the law of unintended consequences, and the odds that day were not totally stacked FOR you, you can go to your reward without undue stress.