Guest Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) I think I need to see it up close and from all sides before I can definitely form an opinion. When I bring the photos back I'll post them in Flickr and everyone can have a go at them. I'm with Susie, I think it's NA but it might be some older version that we may or may not have documentation of. I hope they can get accurate dating when I send off the bone. One of the posters on here reminded me of the x-ray they use for shipping now. I've e-mailed the CFZ for any guidance on packaging so we will see, they maybe able to adjust for that if scanning is unavoidable for a package going overseas. Y'all have no idea how complicated the logistics of all of this has gotten for one little petrified toe bone. It makes me laugh when I go over and read the " What to with the Body" thread. Edited June 8, 2011 by Jodie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Jodie, You are a precious lady with a big heart. I sincerely hope that your research on Mortimer will yield something really fabulous, and you will have made yourself a name in the world of forensics. This could be that famous Alabama Indian Chief since the physician accepted it as payment of a rather large bill over 30+ years ago. You never know, but those long arms and legs were just mind-boggling to me 20 years ago, the skull was slightly sloped and fit the body size, now it is too small. I thought that the rib cage was larger also, but it has been a while since I last saw him, the only thing in the new picture is how *very* small the skull is from what I remember it being. This is so exciting, I can't wait to hear back from you when you return, and I hope that everyone is kind and helpful towards you. Selma is a friendly town, and I hope that you will enjoy your trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 So far the owner has been real accommodating, everyone else has been really helpful and curious as to how old Mortimer is and if he is NA. Right now, I'm going to quit worrying about the mail and just focus on getting better pics and a bone. I'll deal with the mail issue later, Mortimer has sat there for 25 years, I don't think it'll matter if his toe bone waits a few more weeks while I get that worked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest parnassus Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I hope you inform the owner of the restaurant that the publicity is going to result in him giving up his "decoration." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Let me refer you to the NAGPRA website, Parn. I checked into this after Hairyman pointed it out in post #61. She is correct, it only applies to remains found on federal land or in museums that are federally funded. http://www.nps.gov/history/nagpra/ Who is responsible for complying with NAGPRA? All Federal agencies are subject to NAGPRA. All public and private museums that have received Federal funds, other than the Smithsonian Institution, are subject to NAGPRA. (Repatriation by the Smithsonian Institution is governed by the National Museum of the American Indian Act of 1989, 20 U.S.C. 80q.) Here is a synopsis of regulations affecting Alabama that I looked up. It doesn't look like anything applies to this specific situation: The State of Alabama places few restrictions on collecting fossils. The landowner's permission is required to collect material from private land (and most land in Alabama is privately owned). Human remains and artifacts may not be dug out of the ground, although arrowheads can be collected from the surface. Nothing may be collected in caves except for scientific purposes. Finally, the State Fossil, Eocene whale Basilosaurus cetoides, may be collected, but specimens may not be removed from the state without the written permission of the Governor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Jodie said: The State of Alabama places few restrictions on collecting fossils. **Finally, the State Fossil, Eocene whale Basilosaurus cetoides, may be collected, but specimens may not be removed from the state without the written permission of the Governor** Heaven forbid someone moves and does not realize that they even have Eocene whale Basilosaurus cetoides. As much junk and fossils my little fellows found, I could be illegally harboring cetoides! What are they and what do they look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 I don't do any kind of investigating for a living but it did flash across my mind like a bad skit from Saturday Night Live, what if I clip the wire holding that toe bone onto the foot and the whole thing collapses like something out of "Jinga"? I did some research and wrote up a nice little release from liability form that I will ask the owner, after I talk with her awhile explaining my concern, to sign before I do any clipping. Another alternative is to get her to clip the wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Well y'all I just got back from Selma. Susie I did not call you but I think you will understand why when you read what happened. I got there, everything was great,the reporters and I had lunch together. It's kind of a small place with stairs going up to an unused section. Mortimer is sitting on the landing of these stairs behind a gate that was originally used to keep slaves incarcerated in the basement as the building was originally a warehouse for the slave trade. The restaurant was really crowded to have so many late lunchers. We waited way past the time we agreed to meet for those folks to clear out. It being such a small town, I think everyone knew we were coming. Finally everyone cleared out and the owner opened the gate. The first thing I noticed going up the stairs was how small the head was. I draped the paneling behind the skeleton with white cloth in order to get better contrast with the photos. I wasn't really impressed with what I was seeing. After the photos I started measuring. Lots of discrepencies in the ratio of the length of the feet with the humerous. The legs were much longer than the torso, The head was 2 inches smaller in circumference than mine was. While I was doing this I mentioned it to the videographer. The owner had a file she had kept on Mortimer since she assumed ownership and was reading it to us. Evidently, NAGPRA had previously filed a claim a few years ago. The owner was reading the section of those court papers that stated the claim, what the exam of the skeleton revealed, and the ruling in her favor. That report said that Mortimer measured 7 feet tall. There were two other occasions where Mortimer was removed from the premises that the owner recalled. Ther might have been more before she assumed ownership of the restaurant. The videographer requested that we measure the skeleton's height. I didn't want to pick him up for fear I would break him so the owner lifted while I measured. THIS SKELETON ONLY STOOD 5'10". The owner was a tad upset. She insisted I take Mortimer's toe despite my explaining that the DNA analysis probably wouldn't be done. She kept referring back to her records. I can only guess at what happened. Either no one ever really measured this skeleton. Or at some point the skeleton was swapped for this one which had such unsymmetrical bones, I'm assuming it was an old skeleton truly used for med students made from the bones of those that donated their remains for research. The other possibility is that it was just a "TALL" tale. I'm thinking it was the later as I'm pretty sure someone would notice a big discrepancy in height like that before now. So what does everyone think I ought to do with that toe bone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rockinkt Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Tell NAGPRA that you have a toe-bone from their earlier unsuccessful claim and would be happy to donate it to them as long as any test results were forwarded to you. BTW - congratulations on actually investigating a claim. It seems to be a very rare event around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 As you know Jodie, this is a scenario that I was afraid of. You really might have been on to something Susie. You also recognized from the pic that the skull was too small. The reason is, because it was! Jodie, do you know if those two other times it was removed were by Court Order or other official purpose? Can you find out more on who removed it, when, and why, etc? A swap was obviously made. One that conflicted with the ruling of the court. With the change in ownerships, it wouldn't be that difficult to miss a slumped skeleton. Nope, no coverup here. Sorry Susie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rockinkt Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 <snip> A swap was obviously made. One that conflicted with the ruling of the court. With the change in ownerships, it wouldn't be that difficult to miss a slumped skeleton. Nope, no coverup here. Sorry Susie. What factual evidence do you have that a swap was made? Do you know how serious it is to make an accusation like that without proof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Jodie, you did a fine job on this. Congrats. I like Rock's idea about the toe bone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Jodie, do you know if those two other times it was removed were by Court Order or other official purpose? Can you find out more on who removed it, when, and why, etc? To the owner's knowledge, the skeleton was removed and hidden for a town scavenger hunt on Halloween called "Find Mortimer". It was also taken by a group of EMT's who volunteered to rewire Mortimer for the owner, as he was coming undone, a few years back. Prior to her taking ownership, she didn't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 (edited) What factual evidence do you have that a swap was made? Do you know how serious it is to make an accusation like that without proof? Had you read the thread you would know that Susie and her husband (a pathologist) had examined the skeleton 20 yrs ago. She remarked that the skull was smaller in proportion, that it did not have a sloping front, that it was Big, around 7' tall (which corresponds to the formal documents). It is apparently not the same skeleton she saw 20 yrs ago. WHO and when it may have been swapped, well don't put words in my mouth because there are a few options. It probably occurred sometimes after the court ruling being Jodi said records indicate that specimen being 7' tall. But at 5' 10", a skeleton would not appear that oversized as indicated by the witness. We're dealing with what Susie remembers herein. She knew it did not look entirely the same. Thanks Jodie. Interesting. Edited June 14, 2011 by PragmaticTheorist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 (edited) 20+ years ago Mortimer was long, he was different, he was *not* 5 10. Hubby is a physician, also the smartest man I've ever met and is still the smartest man I've known until today and I was reared by a dual Ph.d'ed dad, and hubby knew Mort was different. Why in the world would I be haunted by a normal skeleton when I've lived around them my entire life due to my family roots and my own medical career? Hubby was intrigued, and nothing intrigued him unless it was unique. You did not see the original Mortimer. Someone has switched the bones, why I do not known, but the real Mort is gone. Were the arms long as in the picture/drawing we have had posted here? I immediately noticed the differences, and mentioned them. What looked liked what I remembered were the long arms. The original arms almost reached the knees. The skull and chest cavity were too small.I could not determine the leg length in the pictures, but at one time Mort was truly unique. Thank you Jodie. I'm so sorry that the original was not there for you to see. Added: Hubby is 6'3, how could he and I be impressed with 5'10? Edited June 14, 2011 by SweetSusiq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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