Guest Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 There may be legal implications if I do this and misrepresent myself. I'm truly only interested in whether it's a possible BF skeleton so I want to approach this from "I want to see if this is human" and then ease into bigfoot. The Indian heritage is not my claim, but the restaurant's claim, which may not be the case. I don't seriously think a relic hominid species, if it is truly ancient, would be in good enough condition for it to have stayed intact sitting on a barrel in a restaurant/bar for the last 20+ years, probably exposed to cigarette smoke, hand oils from people touching it, etc.... There is no precedent for a fossilized skeleton past 25,000 years in North America either. That means it is either fake, a settler with a metabolic disorder, or a Muscogee that got a tall gene. I really doubt it's a bigfoot or skunk ape but I'll never say never. If the skull doesn't look right and it's not a plastic/resin skeleton then it needs to go to someone who can do craniometric measurements off my digital photos and the host for this forum will provide DNA testing for free, if I'm not mistaken. Once that is all in, the "indian" issue can be dealt with, but I bet it's not real. Wouldn't that be a pisser if a bigfoot skeleton had been sitting in a restaurant/bar for the past 20+ years right under our noses? OH, But Jodie, You Will have *DISCOVERED** it!!! I am so excited. Something will be done either way. If it is an NA body, we will make sure that we notify the proper authorities and have it turned over to the proper NA authorities . I swear on my honor that 20+ years ago those *were* real bones. Hubby and I (both of us together) talked to the elderly physician who had received them as payment from a local poor farm family. They had the bones/body, whatever, and the bones ended up on display for over 20 years. We will soon have a solution thanks to Jodie and her dedication to discovering the truth. We are blessed to have her as a member here. Thank you Jodie! The inhumane treatment of that skeleton has haunted me ever since I first saw it. If it is a BF, then it will probably also go to the correct lab for study and proper management of the remains. However and whatever, If the bones are real they will end up somewhere besides that restaurant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 If they are Indian remains no doubt, if the DNA and skull morphology indicate something not Homo Sapien that might be a little more tricky. The restaurant owners would retain custody and it would be up to them to follow through. The only thing I'm interested in is getting the ball rolling, the rest of it is going to require a lot of help from other people on this forum. It will be a group effort, if anything comes of it at all. Either way, I will be pleased as punch whether it is a Muscogee or a bigfoot. I sure hope those bones haven't been replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 If they are Indian remains no doubt, if the DNA and skull morphology indicate something not Homo Sapien that might be a little more tricky. The restaurant owners would retain custody and it would be up to them to follow through. The only thing I'm interested in is getting the ball rolling, the rest of it is going to require a lot of help from other people on this forum. It will be a group effort, if anything comes of it at all. Either way, I will be pleased as punch whether it is a Muscogee or a bigfoot. I sure hope those bones haven't been replaced. Well, Due to all the attention the Bones have been getting, the owners may be on alert. I'm naming the skeleton *Bones*. I take some sort of prerogative rights or whatever,so at least the poor thing has a name. However, can you even purchase 7 ft.tall fake skeleton bones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 That's why I have been talking openly because we don't really have any say and it's the owner's decision what we can or can't do with their bones. I called this AM and they are closed for the holiday weekend. I'll try again tomorrow and see if one of the employees can send us a pic from their phone whether it's real or not just so everyone can see what we have been talking about. Then Susiq can see if it looks like the same one she saw 20+ years ago. I haven't heard back from Mike so he must be busy this weekend. I'll keep everyone posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thepattywagon Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 A clear pic of the skull would go a long way. My guess is that someone would have raised a stink about this skeleton by now, if it was real. Or maybe they did, and it's been replaced with a fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 (edited) Jodie & Susie, As interesting as this is, your first mistake may have been discussing every detail in a public forum. Edited May 30, 2011 by PragmaticTheorist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 I would suspect that anyone in the know about the skeleton would have already examined it and would have posted their knowledge here. I truly don't think that (Very Hopefully) someone has called and reported this info from here. At least I sincerely hope not. Why call and alert them? What we are trying to accomplish is the *correct* thing to do. If it is not NA nor BF, then I guess that it will remain there on display, which makes me sorta sick to my stomach. No one's remains should ever be treated that way. They dressed it up for holidays FGS. How tacky is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Man Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 As a federally archaeologist and anthropologist, I can assure you that NAGPRA does NOT apply in this case. NAGPRA only applies to federal agencies (except the Smithsonian) and any museum or institution that takes federal dollars (i.e., universities). This skeleton is in the possession of a private owner who likely purchased it back in the days when that stuff was allowed. Most states grandfathered in human remains that were in private hands back in the 1970s but since that time, it is illegal to be in possession of human remains. Anyone finding human remains (old, new, suspected) have to notify the coroner about the find. It is the coroner who determines ownership and what other laws apply. So - if the find is on federal lands, the find is given back to the feds and they start the NAGPRA process. If it's on private lands, the coroner leaves it up to the private land owner who can return the remains to be buried back where it came from (the land owner can not possess it) or the land owner can offer it to the local tribe for burial where they see fit or he can invite a university to excavate it, etc. Since the skeleton appears to have a long history, it is probably pretty well known in the area. Before I spent much time on it, I would contact the county coroner and/or the local college Anthropology department and see what they say. I'm betting it's been inspected already and they have much information on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 That's why I have been talking openly because we don't really have any say and it's the owner's decision what we can or can't do with their bones. I called this AM and they are closed for the holiday weekend. I'll try again tomorrow and see if one of the employees can send us a pic from their phone whether it's real or not just so everyone can see what we have been talking about. Then Susiq can see if it looks like the same one she saw 20+ years ago. I haven't heard back from Mike so he must be busy this weekend. I'll keep everyone posted. Jodie, I'm starting to worry about expressing so much interest in the skeleton to the people who are working there. I'm afraid that you will be ejected from the restaurant or denied entrance if they know that you are coming to examine the bones. I'm willing to bet money that the irritated person you spoke to last time you called complained about the call to the staff and owners and they may be alarmed and *on alert* about why all of this sudden interest in their trophy bones. I think that showing up for lunch or dinner and while eating casually say "Wow, could those be something not human perhaps", and they could allow you to take pictures because they will not feel threatened about losing their bones due to the NA verbal history about the bone's heritage. Too much inquiry may backfire on us and your research about verifying the bones genetic composition and history IMVOHO. ****Surely someone here has family or friends closer to Selma than you are, and **using someone local** could save you a long and expensive trip by having the locals examining the skeleton and taking pictures to show what is there..***** What do you think? I think that the Alabama Bigfoot Organization will have members close by or even living in Selma, and they could easily do all of this for us and thus spare you a long and expensive trip. It's not that hard to take pictures and to record the current verbal history that *could* be different from what it was 20+ years ago. Mores have changed, and the previous NA history may be *down played* so that they do not lose the bones. They also could have returned the bones to the proper place, and now *Do* have fake bones even tho I still cannot understand why anyone would display a skeleton in a restaurant FGS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 As a federally archaeologist and anthropologist, I can assure you that NAGPRA does NOT apply in this case. NAGPRA only applies to federal agencies (except the Smithsonian) and any museum or institution that takes federal dollars (i.e., universities). This skeleton is in the possession of a private owner who likely purchased it back in the days when that stuff was allowed. Most states grandfathered in human remains that were in private hands back in the 1970s but since that time, it is illegal to be in possession of human remains. Anyone finding human remains (old, new, suspected) have to notify the coroner about the find. It is the coroner who determines ownership and what other laws apply. So - if the find is on federal lands, the find is given back to the feds and they start the NAGPRA process. If it's on private lands, the coroner leaves it up to the private land owner who can return the remains to be buried back where it came from (the land owner can not possess it) or the land owner can offer it to the local tribe for burial where they see fit or he can invite a university to excavate it, etc. Since the skeleton appears to have a long history, it is probably pretty well known in the area. Before I spent much time on it, I would contact the county coroner and/or the local college Anthropology department and see what they say. I'm betting it's been inspected already and they have much information on it. Thank you all of this info. I just wish that I had read it before my last post was published! It sounds like we may not need to investigate bones if we can reach someone who did examine them by talking to the coroner about this issue. I'll try to reach him/her tomorrow. Thanks so much. You may have just saved Jodie a long and fruitless trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vilnoori Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 This is very exciting. Jodie, please be sure to take pictures of the side of the lower jaw, and if you can, the upper and lower teeth, and the forehead from the side and front. Actually a side and front pic of the entire head will be useful. The pelvis, hands and feet as well. The back of the head...looking for a nuchal crest. If you were able to buy a bit of the skeleton, try to take a premolar tooth, because modern humans have premolars with only one root, but all other archaic forms of humans as well as apes have premolars with two roots. If you can, try to get a good look at the inside of the lower jaw, and a close up of the side of the lower jaw alongside the premolars, which might give an indication of what the premolar roots are like. DNA samples from teeth cracked open are the best in terms of avoiding contamination. So, again, a tooth (a premolar or even molar) is your best bet, even if they have boiled or bleached the skeleton. Well Good Luck! I'll be thinking of you today! And if you do discover something, I am sure Suzi will share the glory. She noticed it, after all, and made the BF connection...and brought it to the attention of this forum, as I can remember from her previous posts long ago before this forum version started. You gals rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Jodie & Susie, As interesting as this is, your first mistake may have been discussing every detail in a public forum. Nope, the first mistake would have been to approach this in any other way but out in the open. It's not our skeleton and it's more than likely fake. Now if I call tomorrow and they have had a robbery over the weekend where the skeleton was stolen, these posts are my evidence I was not involved. Then they can track everyone who has looked at this thread's IP address to catch the culprit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 As a federally archaeologist and anthropologist, I can assure you that NAGPRA does NOT apply in this case. NAGPRA only applies to federal agencies (except the Smithsonian) and any museum or institution that takes federal dollars (i.e., universities). This skeleton is in the possession of a private owner who likely purchased it back in the days when that stuff was allowed. Most states grandfathered in human remains that were in private hands back in the 1970s but since that time, it is illegal to be in possession of human remains. Anyone finding human remains (old, new, suspected) have to notify the coroner about the find. It is the coroner who determines ownership and what other laws apply. So - if the find is on federal lands, the find is given back to the feds and they start the NAGPRA process. If it's on private lands, the coroner leaves it up to the private land owner who can return the remains to be buried back where it came from (the land owner can not possess it) or the land owner can offer it to the local tribe for burial where they see fit or he can invite a university to excavate it, etc. Since the skeleton appears to have a long history, it is probably pretty well known in the area. Before I spent much time on it, I would contact the county coroner and/or the local college Anthropology department and see what they say. I'm betting it's been inspected already and they have much information on it. It will have to be the coroner, closest University is Auburn or Alabama. I'll talk to the manager or owner first in the AM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 This is very exciting. Jodie, please be sure to take pictures of the side of the lower jaw, and if you can, the upper and lower teeth, and the forehead from the side and front. Actually a side and front pic of the entire head will be useful. The pelvis, hands and feet as well. The back of the head...looking for a nuchal crest. If you were able to buy a bit of the skeleton, try to take a premolar tooth, because modern humans have premolars with only one root, but all other archaic forms of humans as well as apes have premolars with two roots. If you can, try to get a good look at the inside of the lower jaw, and a close up of the side of the lower jaw alongside the premolars, which might give an indication of what the premolar roots are like. DNA samples from teeth cracked open are the best in terms of avoiding contamination. So, again, a tooth (a premolar or even molar) is your best bet, even if they have boiled or bleached the skeleton. Well Good Luck! I'll be thinking of you today! And if you do discover something, I am sure Suzi will share the glory. She noticed it, after all, and made the BF connection...and brought it to the attention of this forum, as I can remember from her previous posts long ago before this forum version started. You gals rock. If this turns out to be the real deal, and they allow it, I'll be sure and ask for a tooth. I already read up on digital photography that can used to do craniometric measurements with autocad. I'm hoping they will let me reposition it where I can get the best pics and I hope the jaw isn't wired shut. I wanted to measure the inside of the mouth too and take photos of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 (edited) Nope, the first mistake would have been to approach this in any other way but out in the open. It's not our skeleton and it's more than likely fake. Now if I call tomorrow and they have had a robbery over the weekend where the skeleton was stolen, these posts are my evidence I was not involved. Then they can track everyone who has looked at this thread's IP address to catch the culprit. How many supposed skeletons have there been over the decades that have disappeared? Where is the Minnesota Iceman? There are others. My point was that there are probably people who don't want this kind of evidence seeing the light of day. Never mind your thief. Yeah, call it conspiracy theory if you'd like. Anyway, even some of the Bigfoot Interests out there would have no prob coming up with ten grand and just purchasing it outright. Edited July 31, 2011 by Jodie Removed religious reference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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