Missing 411

[NatFoot]

3 hours ago, BlackRockBigfoot said:

Wow.  Holy crap.  

 

Can't we just outlaw shovels and grinders?  ...for the children?

 

Yes. And those beetles.

 

That is a crazy backstory though.

[Huntster]

I heard that guy had to sell out and leave after that fire. 

 

Regarding the dangers of archeology, try this. Even Indiana Jones couldn't escape the danger. As it turned out, Alaskan authorities thought I might have stumbled into some of this during my caribou hunt last year:

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/01/24/575974220/are-there-zombie-viruses-in-the-thawing-permafrost

[VAfooter]

No fouls so far, but do not descend into political discussions.

 

 

8 hours ago, BlackRockBigfoot said:

Sharpen up the sides of an e-tool and you've got a pretty decent battle axe.  

 

 

 

Spetsnaz been using them for decades and is a formal part of their training:

 

 

https://www.coldsteel.com/special-forces-shovel/

 

 

 

https://fishgame.com/2015/01/throw-special-forces-shovel-video/

 

 

 

Spestnaz Shovel Fighting

In a warfare training of Spetsnaz soldiers, it is of vital importance to focus on the fighter’s ability to take on a hand-to-hand combat. Their expertise in how to use hand-held weapons and different devices and tools such as the shovel is very important. This tool is basic component of a regular outfit and, it is a ferocious and dependable a weapon in a close combat. Spesnatz shovel fighting can be deadly if trained fighters are engaged. This weapon can even surpass the striking power and the range of a combat knife. And because it is lightweight, it can be effective in both close and middle distance combat. It is not only useful in actual combat but also an effective self-defense technique.

 

Spetsnaz Shovel Throwing

The Spetsnaz shovel is an outstanding throwing implement. In the hands of the initiated, it could be a very potent and lethal weapon enough to stop any opponent in his tracks.  Distance range can be up to 10 meters or even more if made by a well-trained expert.  The shovel itself is especially designed aerodynamically to be thrown and hit the target with ample accuracy.  The weight balance between the handle and the blade makes it perfect for throwing and this is one feature that comes in handy especially in close quarter combat.  It is then no wonder that from a simple multi-tasking implement, the Spetsnaz shovel has evolved into an important accessory for combat training by elite forces around the world.

 

 

https://toptooltips.com/spetsnaz-shovel-wiki-cold-steel-russian-special-forces-shovel-review-inc-fighting-throwing/

[BlackRockBigfoot]

2 hours ago, VAfooter said:

No fouls so far, but do not descend into political discussions.

 

 

 

 

 

Spetsnaz been using them for decades and is a formal part of their training:

 

 

https://www.coldsteel.com/special-forces-shovel/

 

 

 

https://fishgame.com/2015/01/throw-special-forces-shovel-video/

 

 

 

Spestnaz Shovel Fighting

In a warfare training of Spetsnaz soldiers, it is of vital importance to focus on the fighter’s ability to take on a hand-to-hand combat. Their expertise in how to use hand-held weapons and different devices and tools such as the shovel is very important. This tool is basic component of a regular outfit and, it is a ferocious and dependable a weapon in a close combat. Spesnatz shovel fighting can be deadly if trained fighters are engaged. This weapon can even surpass the striking power and the range of a combat knife. And because it is lightweight, it can be effective in both close and middle distance combat. It is not only useful in actual combat but also an effective self-defense technique.

 

Spetsnaz Shovel Throwing

The Spetsnaz shovel is an outstanding throwing implement. In the hands of the initiated, it could be a very potent and lethal weapon enough to stop any opponent in his tracks.  Distance range can be up to 10 meters or even more if made by a well-trained expert.  The shovel itself is especially designed aerodynamically to be thrown and hit the target with ample accuracy.  The weight balance between the handle and the blade makes it perfect for throwing and this is one feature that comes in handy especially in close quarter combat.  It is then no wonder that from a simple multi-tasking implement, the Spetsnaz shovel has evolved into an important accessory for combat training by elite forces around the world.

 

 

https://toptooltips.com/spetsnaz-shovel-wiki-cold-steel-russian-special-forces-shovel-review-inc-fighting-throwing/

You are speaking to a total mall ninja Cold Steel dork, good sir.  My Cold Steel folder collection would probably make you doubt my sanity.   

 

I had the smaller version of the shovel.  It was awesome.  Lost it and my Bad Axe somewhere over the years.  

 

It sucks that they have been sold.  No more over the top stuff like murder shovels or boar spears.

[Anthropologist]

You are all correct about a shovel being a weapon.  I kept my round point shovel sharpened like a knife, using a metal file to keep the edge sharp to cut through roots like a hot knife through butter.  It also comes in handy to slice and dice poisonous snakes.  On one occasion, I sliced and diced a coiled water moccasin that was ready to strike me.  What flipped me out (besides the shock of walking up to it within a few feet) was that when I swept away the cut up snake using the blade of my shovel, the cottonmouth was biting my shovel blade even though it's head was cut off from its body!   

[Explorer]

On 12/30/2020 at 12:06 PM, VAfooter said:

People still going missing:

 

https://www.strangeoutdoors.com/mysterious-stories-blog/sam-dubal

 

The guy seemed to be on top of things and well prepared for the hike. Obviously a very smart guy.

 

I looked into the map of the area that Sam Duval was backpacking (loop around Mother Mountain).

This area is NW of Mt. Rainier but within the National Park.

I recall that the intent was for an overnight stay while backpacking 2 days around that loop.

The loop is about 16.5 miles and has a total of ~6,500 ft ascent and descent.  Not easy.

It is doable for a very fit backpacker and if in good weather and no snow.

 

However, I read in one of the news article on this case that:

"Recent winter storms have covered much of that area with snow, while temperatures have dropped below freezing even at lower elevations, NPS said. And just a day after Dubal set out for his hike, a storm washed out the crossing he would have used to traverse the Carbon River, according to the release."

 

Per the map, if he was doing the Mother Mountain loop, he did have to cross the Carbon River on the way back.

If he was bold, tried to cross the river, and under-predicted its strength, then maybe the river took him and we won't find the body.

I am not familiar with that river, so don't really know how difficult it can be to cross after a storm.

 

Another case that Paulides posed on his YouTube website is about a young backpacker named Jacob Beetler (age 20) who went missing on the Ruby Mountains in Nevada but eventually his body was found (in an unexpected area east of where they were looking and under a cliff).

Paulides goes over the Beetler case at ~16 minutes 10 sec (see link below).

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20fGSHxPNXA

 

Paulides claims that his body was found naked and without boots at the foot of a 200 ft cliff.

I did not find news sources corroborating the lack of boots or clothing.

His father did report that his day pack and other personal items were found somewhere else.

 

I also investigated the maps of the area where Jacob went hiking and where his body was found.

It does appear that he went off-route and was lost and tried to exit east (instead of west) via a dangerous cliffy area.

Not sure if the cause of death was hypothermia or blunt force trauma from the fall (or the fall injured him and then he froze).

Paulides tries to make this case mysterious because of where the body was found and how it was found.

I don't see a lot of mystery here.

 

You get a different view point of the nature of this story from the dad at Jacob's memorial.

Jacob's dad explains away the pack and clothing being located in a different place from the body because of deer.

I think that hypothesis is feasible and likely.

 

I had two incidents where deer came overnight and ate my gear.

One time in Trinity Alps, the deer came and took 2 t-shirts that were left drying on a bush and moved them about 30-50 ft away, chewed them, and destroyed them.  They were looking for the salt in them.

Another time in the Siskiyous, deer came and took my hiking poles away from my camping area and chewed away the straps. 

 

The link below summarizes the opinion of Jacob's dad about the disappearance and unfortunate end.

 

Based on his dad's statement, I don't think Paulides can claim that Jacob was a seasoned and very experienced hunter or outdoor backpacker.

 

https://elkodaily.com/news/local/remembering-jacob-beetler/article_16e73b5f-5a79-5b74-b87c-91745ea4b621.html

 

[SWWASAS]

That Paulides describes a 20 year old as an experienced hiker is strange.    Most people of that age cannot have accumulated enough experience to be called that unless they had done the Pacific Crest trail or something like that.   Good experience takes years to get for the typical weekend hiker.  

[VAfooter]

1 hour ago, Explorer said:

I looked into the map of the area that Sam Duval was backpacking (loop around Mother Mountain).

 

Yeah, I was going to ask if anyone had experience on this trail and if so, what is the terrain like. At this point the flooded river crossing would seem to be the most "normal" explanation for the missing hiker. But seems like if he were as much a veteran as the story indicated, he would have either avoided it or retraced his steps. It appears to be a circuit hike so going back the other way should have gotten him home, even if it were not his preferred way.

[Kiwakwe]

Always appreciate your insightful research into events and the write ups @Explorer. I too thought the river may have been his downfall. As for Paulides statement on Beetler being an experienced hiker--I think that is becoming a bit of a trope--as if mistakes or random accidents can't happen to someone who's spent time hiking. Without a compass in dense woods on an overcast day--it's fairly easy to get turned around. Granted one could say an experienced hiker would have brought a compass... One could also say that a person who is experienced hiking established trails may not know diddly about off route travel.   As time goes on, more of these missing persons cases to seem to be over mystified for the sake of publishing more stories. Maybe I'm wrong...

[Explorer]

@Kiwakwe

 

Glad you like my write-ups on some of these missing cases.

I try to understand what these guys do wrong and follow their routes in maps to see if I can learn something.

I go backpacking, so I want to learn from mistakes from others and try to avoid them.

 

Another case that I looked at earlier this month was the case of Dr. James McGrogan.

Per Paulides, in the YouTube video linked below, the case is mysterious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TlGc4slOMo

 

However, when I look at the route he took and the alternative explanation offered by the SAR member post below, the case does not look mysterious at all.

 

The map extract I posted below shows the expected route of Dr. McGrogan: going up the Middle Creek trail (off the Spraddle Creek Road/Trail) and up to Eiseman Hut.

His body was found at bottom of Booth Falls (off the Booth LakeTrail) - I placed a waypoint on the map below.

The explanation given by the SAR member (posted below and extracted from the comment section of Strange Outdoors), suggests that he missed the turn toward Eiseman Hut and instead continued towards Bald Mountain.

Once on Bald Mountain, he saw the Vail city lights to the south and thought he could drop down into the drainage below and hike out the Booth Lake Trail.

It was a treacherous and dangerous move (winter or summer), and he fell and died.

 

I noticed that Paulides shows Dr. McGrogan going up to Eiseman Hut via different route (further west) and further away from Bald mountain (at 13 min 12 sec on his video).

That is not the trial I show below.

I based my information on the report below from the Post Independent that says that Dr. McGrogan went up the Spraddle Creek Trailhead.

https://www.postindependent.com/news/local/missing-ind-hikers-body-found-just-1-5-miles-from-the-booth-falls-trailhead/

 

The Strange Outdoor write-up with the SAR comment post is linked below.

https://www.strangeoutdoors.com/mysterious-stories-blog/2017/11/28/james-mcgrogan

 

 

[Explorer]

I suspect that many of the Missing 411 cases (in David Paulides books and YouTube videos) probably have conventional explanations and are not mysterious.

 

When you watch some of those videos, at first glance they sound mysterious. But once you start digging, you realize that he is not disclosing all the facts and evidence available or that some evidence and information has not been publicly released. 

He might also not get some facts correct (like in the McGrogan case above on the initial route taken).

 

Nonetheless, there are some Missing 411 cases that are hard to explain.  

I watched that documentary titled Vanished and find it hard to come up with a conventional explanation (that explains all the evidence) for the missing men in Mt. Shasta and in Mesa Verde NP.

Truly bizarre.

Thus, I don't dismiss all his work.

 

If you have not watched Vanished, I recommend watching that documentary.

[wiiawiwb]

The same can be said of Tom Messick in the Missing 411 documentary.  There is no conventional explanation.

 

I've hiked and backpacked for many years and hiking on trails does not provide enough experience, if any, of what to do if lost or how to navigate in the wilderness.  The only way is to force yourself to go off trail and learn how to navigate without benefit of a trail.  Essentially, get lost in a controlled environment and force yourself to find a destination.  Not enough people do that and when they find themselves lost, they panic, and do not the experience how to extract themselves from their situation.  

 

I also think that while GPS and electronics are a phenomenal tool, most people, especially younger folks, don't have a clue how to navigate using a map, compass, the sun, or terrain association.  If they're lost, they're toast.

[NCBFr]

On 10/8/2020 at 5:43 PM, BlackRockBigfoot said:

Started low, built in intensity, worked back down, then started back up.  Once we got over our initial shock, we ran and got the cameras.  It was so faint by then the camera mics couldn't pick it up. 

 

 

 

Oh man, do I know that sound.  My version did not go back down or repeat but ended with some massive thrashing of large pine trees.  

[NatFoot]

8 hours ago, Explorer said:

I suspect that many of the Missing 411 cases (in David Paulides books and YouTube videos) probably have conventional explanations and are not mysterious.

 

When you watch some of those videos, at first glance they sound mysterious. But once you start digging, you realize that he is not disclosing all the facts and evidence available or that some evidence and information has not been publicly released. 

He might also not get some facts correct (like in the McGrogan case above on the initial route taken).

 

Nonetheless, there are some Missing 411 cases that are hard to explain.  

I watched that documentary titled Vanished and find it hard to come up with a conventional explanation (that explains all the evidence) for the missing men in Mt. Shasta and in Mesa Verde NP.

Truly bizarre.

Thus, I don't dismiss all his work.

 

If you have not watched Vanished, I recommend watching that documentary.

 

Interesting. Thanks for showing a couple of examples.

 

Paulides would say....it only takes 1% though for it to be true that something very strange is happening out there.

 

It's all fascinating either way.

 

[ShadowBorn]

From experience it is very easy to get turned around and loose your bearings. It has happened to me a few times but I have been very lucky. But the other times that I have been lost I have not been able to explain how.