VAfooter Posted January 2, 2021 Admin Posted January 2, 2021 While I respect the SAR's opinion, there are still things that do not add up. 1. The trail was well marked, why bushwack off a good trail into deep snow and no trail? 2. Why not backtrack along the good trail (or even the bushwacked trail if you went that direction) once you figured out things were going south in a hurry? 3. According to some, the route between the trail and death site would have been extremely difficult to navigate even for a trained pro with the proper equipment, McGrogan was not and had none. 4. There was cell service available, why not stop, make a call, and wait out a rescue? The guy was a doctor, so I presume he was pretty smart. Also, he had a beacon, why not use that if no cell service? None of the reports state exactly where he left his companions, that would be very helpful to know when looking at the maps (we will presume they took the eastern trail and not the western one). He did seem to have the proper equipment and supplies for his intended hike, so I am guessing he had some knowledge of what to do in emergency cases. Even if he was too embarrassed to call for rescue, why not call one of his friends to let them know, and then settle down to wait for them to find him. While Paulides could very well be wrong, the explanation that he went up a drainage, climbed a mountain up what looks to be fairly steep terrain, in eight foot snow, in unknown territory, all off-trail without the proper equipment, is a bit much as well. I am not saying anything "weird" happened, but I find it hard to accept the SAR opinion as well. The loss of clothing indicates that he probably went hypothermic at some point. A terrible tragedy and strange case regardless of what happened.
Kiwakwe Posted January 2, 2021 Posted January 2, 2021 Yep, there are some baffling elements to McGrogan's death also. Thanks again for the write up @Explorer wasn't familiar with that one. He did seem equipped gear wise--beacon, gps, cellphone, sleeping bag, food, skis/board/boots. A helluva lot to lug uphill through 8' of snow at times, off trail. That is the most baffling part--WHY?? And how does SAR not find the trail he took through snow? Barring any anomalous event, the last comment by the SAR person about being humble may be the key. Is there some god-complex-ey arrogance at play in not calling for help via one of the 2 means at his disposal? I have not seen Vanished, will check it out. I have read Missing 411 E & W, watched The Hunted and I've no doubt many of those cases are as mysterious as they are made out to be and that something strange is going on.
hiflier Posted January 2, 2021 Posted January 2, 2021 Underestimating hypothermia is a dangerous thing, especially if over an extended period of time one forgets to hydrate. There was a case in NH years ago where a doctor who was adequately equipped walked off leaving his gloves on a rock in drizzley 55 degree weather. He ended up succumbing to hypothermia with dry clothes including socks found in his pack. I also think the tendency to take that more one step out of fear of being lost is stronger than we may realize. There's real danger if hypothermia succeeds in reverting someone into a one-trick Human.
SWWASAS Posted January 3, 2021 BFF Patron Posted January 3, 2021 In civilian as well as military aviation, a professional aviator reads accident reports to learn something. Mistakes in judgement and compounding other errors or malfunctions can often lead to an accident. I carry that over to lost and missing people reports. Mistakes are often made and come to light reading what is known about someone who gets lost and found or those that are not found alive. I try to learn lessons that I tuck in my brain and avoid situations myself in the future. Impending bad weather, ill equiped, reliance on cell coverage, and time required to complete a hike are all very common factors in the missing and lost in the PNW. All of these are in the control of the hiker. It angers me that some people need to be rescued because lack of basic preparation. Quite frankly I think some deserve fines because they exhibited lack of preparation or poor behavior that resulted in needing rescue. I think some are ablivious their own fault even after rescue.
VAfooter Posted January 4, 2021 Admin Posted January 4, 2021 Better to learn from other's mistakes rather than your own... Just making this up as I go, but I would guess lack of preparation and foolhardy/reckless/stupid behavior probably is the basic reason behind 80%+ of all search and rescue operations. At least ones that I have read about.
Henry Stevens Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 OK, you guys tell me something. This David Pallades (or however you spell his name) started, circa 2012, to research bigfoot-human hybrids. He identified the daughters of "Patrick" and had another individual who claimed to be half bigfoot and had some very strange anatomical features. This issue, if someone contains bigfoot genes, is something that can be researched and answered with certainty. Not only that but we gain exact information on bigfoot genes. It was a wonderful idea. But then this guy took a huge left turn and began "researching" people lost in the forest. David Palades is the one lost in a forest. Other than the obvious human and personal tragedies of people essentially dying, why is this of interest to anyone? I have lived in a forest for 30 years and people go missing all the time. Most go missing in National Parks where there is the most supervision of visitors. So instead of working to discover what bigfoot fundamentally really is, he dropped the ball completely and went off to joust windmills. Yet nobody has called this guy out, why? The least he could do if he refuses to follow up an obvious course of research is to turn that data over to someone who will follow it up. 1
Arvedis Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, Henry Stevens said: OK, you guys tell me something. This David Pallades (or however you spell his name) started, circa 2012, to research bigfoot-human hybrids. He identified the daughters of "Patrick" and had another individual who claimed to be half bigfoot and had some very strange anatomical features. This issue, if someone contains bigfoot genes, is something that can be researched and answered with certainty. Not only that but we gain exact information on bigfoot genes. It was a wonderful idea. But then this guy took a huge left turn and began "researching" people lost in the forest. David Palades is the one lost in a forest. Other than the obvious human and personal tragedies of people essentially dying, why is this of interest to anyone? I have lived in a forest for 30 years and people go missing all the time. Most go missing in National Parks where there is the most supervision of visitors. So instead of working to discover what bigfoot fundamentally really is, he dropped the ball completely and went off to joust windmills. Yet nobody has called this guy out, why? The least he could do if he refuses to follow up an obvious course of research is to turn that data over to someone who will follow it up. Paulides has shifted the direction of his research a few times. People like a good story and a good mystery. He has an investigative background and as it turns out, he's not a bad writer or speaker. I don't think he planned on making a living selling books and movies. He hits home with enough people because missing persons is an open wound. At some point the search stops and someone's family member is gone with no answers forthcoming. He has said a few times that the families of the missing have become close friends of his because they are grateful for the exposure their story gets. They are still hoping for clues leading to answers. I can see how it would annoy people that he only reluctantly links themes of missing persons, Bigfoot, and the paranormal. He has slowly accepted that there is no escaping the inevitability of at least addressing the possible theories of a connection. Edited February 1, 2021 by Arvedis
Believer57 Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 I think that Dave Paulides lets his viewers connect their own dots. In this manner, he creates a wider audience by not mentioning Bigfoots or UFOs. 1
Henry Stevens Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 Connecting dots and "investigation" are not going to tell us EXACTLY what bigfoot is. Describing bigfoot precisely and accurately in either anatomical and/or genetic terms should be the first priority. After that we can talk about its biology and maybe environmental needs. David Paulides is not doing any of this. And he certainly is making a living doing whatever it is he does. I already feel too much time has been wasted just saying his name. 1
Believer57 Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 Missing 411, the thread's title, is about unsolved cases of people missing in national parks and elsewhere. At what point did you make the jump to finding out what Bigfoot is? 1 1
hiflier Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Henry Stevens said: Connecting dots and "investigation" are not going to tell us EXACTLY what bigfoot is. Describing bigfoot precisely and accurately in either anatomical and/or genetic terms should be the first priority. After that we can talk about its biology and maybe environmental needs. Agree, well said. Anatomically the thing has been as picked apart as much as anything unknown could be. Personally, I'd go with genetics. Edited February 1, 2021 by hiflier
BlackRockBigfoot Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 On 1/31/2021 at 1:07 PM, Henry Stevens said: OK, you guys tell me something. This David Pallades (or however you spell his name) started, circa 2012, to research bigfoot-human hybrids. He identified the daughters of "Patrick" and had another individual who claimed to be half bigfoot and had some very strange anatomical features. This issue, if someone contains bigfoot genes, is something that can be researched and answered with certainty. Not only that but we gain exact information on bigfoot genes. It was a wonderful idea. But then this guy took a huge left turn and began "researching" people lost in the forest. David Palades is the one lost in a forest. Other than the obvious human and personal tragedies of people essentially dying, why is this of interest to anyone? I have lived in a forest for 30 years and people go missing all the time. Most go missing in National Parks where there is the most supervision of visitors. So instead of working to discover what bigfoot fundamentally really is, he dropped the ball completely and went off to joust windmills. Yet nobody has called this guy out, why? The least he could do if he refuses to follow up an obvious course of research is to turn that data over to someone who will follow it up. Paulides started off as a dedicated Bigfoot researcher and then branched off into the Missing 411 while doing Bigfoot research in a national park. I won't recount the story of how he got into this here, since it is repeated at the beginning of almost every interview that he has ever done. I am not going to debate the merits of the Ketchum study, but he has publicly stated that the study has (in his mind) proved the existence of Bigfoot...so he has mostly moved on to focus primarily on the topic of strange disappearances, which he seems to consider more of a pressing issue than the existence of Sasquatch. He catches a lot of flack for not publicly stating what he believes to be the cause of these disappearances, but I believe that his own opinion of the culprits has changed over time...and he is remaining open to new data that might change that opinion even further. I am trying to figure out what you are trying to state here. What are we supposed to call him out for? The fact that he spends his time on research that is not Sasquatch related? What data should he turn over? He has published two books on the topic of his Bigfoot research, which contains his research results. People do go missing all of the time. However, most (not all) of the cases that he presents have unusual circumstances and elements involved. Again, this is evident if you listen to a couple of his interviews...it is not even necessary to read one of his books to see the criteria that he uses to judge whether a missing persons case is included or not.
BlackRockBigfoot Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 On 1/3/2021 at 5:23 PM, SWWASAS said: In civilian as well as military aviation, a professional aviator reads accident reports to learn something. Mistakes in judgement and compounding other errors or malfunctions can often lead to an accident. I carry that over to lost and missing people reports. Mistakes are often made and come to light reading what is known about someone who gets lost and found or those that are not found alive. I try to learn lessons that I tuck in my brain and avoid situations myself in the future. Impending bad weather, ill equiped, reliance on cell coverage, and time required to complete a hike are all very common factors in the missing and lost in the PNW. All of these are in the control of the hiker. It angers me that some people need to be rescued because lack of basic preparation. Quite frankly I think some deserve fines because they exhibited lack of preparation or poor behavior that resulted in needing rescue. I think some are ablivious their own fault even after rescue. Many areas of the country don't want to charge for SAR efforts because they are afraid that people will not report potentially missing people or trigger a beacon alert because they are afraid of being on the hook for the cost. The counties outside of Ashville, NC, are struggling with this right now. Ashville is the mecca for urban bush hippies, so you end up with inexperienced hikers getting lost in the surrounding forests constantly. The Haywood County SAR is getting called out at an unprecedented rate right now...so much so that it is causing budgetary issues. These surrounding counties don't have the tax base that Ashville has, but have to pay for SAR efforts when one of that city's residents gets an upset stomach or gets lost on a well marked trail. A couple of guys who we know who are involved in SAR training were telling us that the advent of affordable locator beacons is both the best and worst thing to ever happen to them. The amount of people who trigger their beacons for trivial matters is apparently shocking.
wiiawiwb Posted February 2, 2021 Posted February 2, 2021 (edited) On 1/31/2021 at 1:07 PM, Henry Stevens said: But then this guy took a huge left turn and began "researching" people lost in the forest. David Palades is the one lost in a forest. Other than the obvious human and personal tragedies of people essentially dying, why is this of interest to anyone? I have lived in a forest for 30 years and people go missing all the time. Most go missing in National Parks where there is the most supervision of visitors. So instead of working to discover what bigfoot fundamentally really is, he dropped the ball completely and went off to joust windmills. Yet nobody has called this guy out, why? The least he could do if he refuses to follow up an obvious course of research is to turn that data over to someone who will follow it up. As discussed many times, no one was looking at missing-person cases in the aggregate. It was nothing more than a collection of disparately unrelated occurrences. It's akin to Ted Bundy who roamed around killing women until one crime investigator saw a pattern and started putting the pieces of the puzzle together...and did so with an audible snap. What is your premise regarding a ball being dropped? That he switched gears from sasquatchery and began investigating missing cases? I consider that a very positive thing. Paulides shined a light onto the issue of people going missing in a way no one had before him. His efforts have helped to bring some measure of closure to families left gazing out the windows wondering what happened to their loved ones. Is the concern he took a breather from all things bigfoot and followed his instincts about something inherently wrong with hikers or hunters going missing? If you've read his books, you know that his work has resulted in him developing a list of common criteria amongst the 1,200+ cases he's been involved with. When someone got in trouble and what was occurring at that moment. That is critical research. It helps those henceforth who go out in the woods to remember the common patterns of those who went missing. One of the classic criteria is the "point of separation". Those who went missing decided to or allowed themselves to be separated from others. These common criteria can help people who are out with friends to remember what not to do. If helping people to avoid tragedy, by identifying factors or specific behaviors they need to consider, is jousting at windmills, then call me Don Quixote del a Mancha. Edited February 2, 2021 by wiiawiwb
SWWASAS Posted February 2, 2021 BFF Patron Posted February 2, 2021 I was a professional aviator for nearly 40 years. Part of that is reading aircraft accident investigations. As with the missing humans there is often a common thread that seems to connect aircraft accidents with contributing factors. Most of flying is long hours of boredom punctuated with brief and rare minutes of terror. Things go wrong, and sometimes when things go wrong it is more than one thing at a time. Often the accident victums had poor rest, missed meals, and bad weather all compounding what starts as a simple mechanical problem that gets out of control. Other unknown factors that never make accident reportss are home life, fights with the spouse, and troublesome kids. With the right combination of factors, a pilot can get overwhelmed and die. There have been times when I have thought that things going on were playing out like an accident report. When I felt that, I forced myself to take stock of the situation, simplify things, and be extra careful that I did nothing to make things worse. All of that can have parallels with missing and dead humans in the woods. Like flying, the woods can be a very dangerous place if things swing out of control. When our situation in the woods is starting to read like an accident or missing person report, proceed with great care to improve things rather than do anything to make things worse. . 2
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