Why No Troublemaking Adolescent Squatch?

[Guest Tontar]

Tontar,

My "rant" came from the question raised in your post. That is why I included that part with quotation marks. My answer to the question you posed was that perhaps the certain something that sets us apart from the sasquatch society is the penchant for evil found in humans.

And before Stank Ape tells me that coyotes eat bunnies, I do not equate the vast majority of observed animal behavior with the evil acts perpetrated by some humans. Conversely, the animal kingdom seems to also be lacking in great acts of humanitarianism, oh yeah,the root word for that is human.

Hmmm, I just reread the post you quoted, and didn't see a question in it which would elicit opinions of good and evil. I believe I did mention the gorilla Koko understanding how to lie and degrade others by name calling. I think that apes at least have something of your idea of human evil in them based on that. Additionally, chimps in captivity as well as in the wild have demonstrated a great deal of savagery, killing and maiming their own kind, toying with and then killing other kinds. I would gather that the line separating humans from other primates is probably slimmer and not as clear as you believe. Since we have absolutely no sasquatches, whether individuals, groups, clan, tribes, cultures or societies to study, projecting unrealistically non-primate behavior on them is wishful thinking. There's no basis to support it in the animal kingdom, whether human or other primate examples.

You ever see the footage of pods of dolphins repeatedly pushing and holding another dolphin under the water, ramming them, holding them down as they frantically try to escape, until the victim finally succumbs and dies? Outright torture and murder. A quick kill would be faster. A slow kill is torture. Nature is not as sweet and innocent as some would like to believe. If it was, our kind would never have left it for the safety of huts and houses. Nature is hostile and unforgiving, which is why we chose to leave it for a "better life".

[Guest Tontar]

Just a general comment here:

Sasquatches have instincts just like humans but perhaps a bit different. For example; A human child learns to hide very well at a young age. Hiding is a primary skill of human children but it is almost useless to the adult.

Another example is this: Human children are naturally afraid of monsters and also afraid of the dark. This makes perfect sense when you think of survival instincts. Monsters are usually big and hairy, roam around at night and want to eat children.....just like wolves and bears etc.

I would guess a child Sasquatch would be even more of an expert at hiding, seeing as the skill is also very important as an adult for them. They, no doubt, have thier natural fears too. Perhaps one of them is of small hairless creatures that roam around during the day want to shoot them.

As far as adolescents go, they most likely are brimming with confidence and are likely to push the boundaries a bit. But to what end? If it doesn't involve sex or some other gratification, why do it. Why fool around with humans? Do adolescent humans play tricks on other animals? Aside from pushing over sleeping cows.....not really.

You should probably preface this with "I would imagine that Saaquatches would have instincts just like humans..." Unless you have some better information about their behavior than everyone else has. :-)

[Guest Tontar]

Another example is this: Human children are naturally afraid of monsters and also afraid of the dark. This makes perfect sense when you think of survival instincts. Monsters are usually big and hairy, roam around at night and want to eat children.....just like wolves and bears etc.

I would guess a child Sasquatch would be even more of an expert at hiding, seeing as the skill is also very important as an adult for them. They, no doubt, have thier natural fears too. Perhaps one of them is of small hairless creatures that roam around during the day want to shoot them.

As far as adolescents go, they most likely are brimming with confidence and are likely to push the boundaries a bit. But to what end? If it doesn't involve sex or some other gratification, why do it. Why fool around with humans? Do adolescent humans play tricks on other animals? Aside from pushing over sleeping cows.....not really.

Why would you say, or think, that humans are naturally afraid of the dark? You know that for certain? If so, what would the reason be? Do you think that they are afraid of the dark, or perhaps they are just diurnal and therefore not active at night. Human eyes are not well suited to the low light levels of night. Creatures that are built for daylight activities, and creatures that are built for night tie activities tend to stay active during those times, and need to be inactive at other times. You would think that they all have some sort of built in mechanism to keep them on track so they don't stray into the wrong sun phase and not be as successful at survival. Does that mechanism equate to fear? I'm not so sure. Not being able to perceive the world around them in the wrong cycle should cause some degree of concern. Is an owl afraid of the daylight? A bat? A raccoon? Is a mountain goat afraid of the dark? Is an eagle, or hawk, afraid of the dark as well?

Monsters, rather predators, roam around at all hours of the day and night. If humans had eyes evolved to maximize the available light at night, you can bet your buttons we'd be foraging around, and hunting at night. Our eyes evolved for the daylight, not the night. THAT is why we are active during the day, and not so much at night. We can't see well at night. It has little do do with monsters. Monsters are also active during the day. People are attacked by mountain lions and bears more often in he day time than at night, so the "monsters" in the dark is not a valid logic. Activity suited to our senses is what determines when we are active, and when we dig in for safe sleeping.

Why would a sasquatch develop habits of hiding only form one other creature, humans? If they live in impassable terrain, terrain where humans never go, then why develop an instinct for avoiding us. That's an idea that is also not supported by other natural examples. Why would sasquatch have some upper hand on who to avoid, when other animals come into contact, fatal contact, with humans every day? Prey animals come into contact with us all the time, and we kill them. Wouldn't you think nature would endow them with better avoidance skills for their own survival? Won't deer ever get wise about the hairless pink creatures with the bang sticks? Heck, I can't even teach the local deer to stop eating our decorative species trees! They don't seem to wise up on an individual basis, much less a species wide basis! Go up the food chain, bears, mountain lions, coyotes, wolves. Wolves get shot by ranchers, why would their species not learn avoidance? They are experts at adaptation, why not learn to avoid humans, to hide from them?

The reality is that there are no other species that have evolved or developed specific hiding from human behavior. In the absence of any other example, attributing such behavior to an undocumented species where we have no individuals or clans to even base a guess like that on, is beyond typical scientific consideration. The only basis for making such a guess, or painting a picture like that, is the lack of evidence. You can't se them, so you assume they are there and hiding. I've seen otters in our pond before. Once. I've seen the shells of the freshwater mussels they've eaten on top of large rocks. But I have not seen the otters since. Are they really good at avoiding being seen, are they hiding from us, or are they not there. They are not there. They have moved on. They are not that great at hiding, they are just not there to be seen. I think that a safer conclusion to why people do not see sasquatches is because they are not there to see. Doesn't mean they don't exist, mind you, but I believe it means they are not THERE to be observed. Creating a better avoidance system than any other creature to justify why they are not seen is probably not as reliable as guessing that they are just not in the area to be observed. We don't see them not because they are good at hiding, but because they are not there to be seen.

And yes, animals DO play. They DO toy with other animals. Young and old alike do this. It is not an exclusively human behavior. You ever see the video of the chimp and the frog? Google it. There are endless examples of animals demonstrating quite human-like behavior that does not immediately lend itself to simple honing of survival behavior. Sasquatch should not be such a radically different sort of nature child that is above and beyond the development, behavior, and mistakes of other animals, humans included.

[BobbyO]

Why would a sasquatch develop habits of hiding only form one other creature, humans?

You're joking right ??

If they live in impassable terrain, terrain where humans never go, then why develop an instinct for avoiding us.

Would the fact they they do actually live in areas such as impassable terrain where Humans never go be a clue in the first place, maybe ??

That's an idea that is also not supported by other natural examples. Why would sasquatch have some upper hand on who to avoid, when other animals come into contact, fatal contact, with humans every day?

A different, higher level of intelligence to Deer, Bear etc ??

Prey animals come into contact with us all the time, and we kill them. Wouldn't you think nature would endow them with better avoidance skills for their own survival?

Prey Animals ?? No, not at all, that's why we catch them then eat them. That's called the Food Chain.

Won't deer ever get wise about the hairless pink creatures with the bang sticks? Heck, I can't even teach the local deer to stop eating our decorative species trees! They don't seem to wise up on an individual basis, much less a species wide basis!

I doubt it, comparing their intelligence level to ours then suggesting that one day they would/could " wise up " to Humans is ridiculous..

Go up the food chain, bears, mountain lions, coyotes, wolves. Wolves get shot by ranchers, why would their species not learn avoidance? They are experts at adaptation, why not learn to avoid humans, to hide from them?

Overall, they do don't they. I mean, like you said earlier in reference to Sasquatches, in general they live in impassable terrain where Humans rarely or can't travel. That in itself is a form of defence & avoidance, wouldn't you say ??

The reality is that there are no other species that have evolved or developed specific hiding from human behavior.

Oh yes there is. Whether you choose to believe they exist or not is entirely up to you however. Unfortunately no one has come up with a great deal of evidence of their existence so far other than a Film from 44 Years back, but that just goes to show how **** well they're capable of hiding, make no mistake about that.

My bold..

Interesting thread

[Bonehead74]

BobbyO beat me to it. Preternatural intelligence coupled with likely historical interaction with humans have taught them to keep a low profile.

[Guest]

How about this for a thought...

Again dealing with that neotenous human brain- is not much of what we call "evil" attributable to our more base animal instincts ? Things we do, that when we do them, we ignore the reason and cognitive thinking that our larger brains have given us, and revert to a more animal behavior?

I would even suggest that even some of the most heinous things that people/humans do- that we label "evil" are more related to this base animal instinct that we all like to hold ourselves above. Why? because since we started down this big brain path eons ago- one of the 1st things we did was to hold ourselves above the rest of the animal world, and tell ourselves that we're so different than all of our animal relatives-both the close and distant.

Mass murder? Simple... the strong want to eliminate what they perceive as the weak. Maybe other animals dont take it to the scope or scale that we do, but the behavior is there in the animal kingdom.

I've seen horses run up and bite, and kick at an old sick horse- trying to drive it away from the rest, or even kill it if necessary.

To be cruel? No, not in the horses mind. It see's the weak old dying horse as a threat- because more than likely it will draw in predators which has an overall effect on the rest of the herd.

While we know in our big brains (we like to say "our hearts"), that it was wrong to do so- it was the objective for the holocaust, and many of the worlds worst genocides- a "cleansing" of the races. Elimination of all that was perceived as weak or damaging to the future, in that the perpetrators saw a "perfected" human existence, without mental disease, or ethnic and physical characteristics they saw as "undesirable".

We hopefully all recognize the flaw in this thinking, or at least in the tactics they chose to use, to go about solving what they saw as "the problem".

But where does that thought process come from? Is it really "evil", or just being weak enough to revert back to a more cruel and animal way of thinking...? Because genocides are still happening right now today- even after we were supposed to have learned our lesson so many times. Apparently we havent.

A human enjoying torture? Is it really "evil" ? I happen to believe it is in our case, because we have the capability of "knowing" (reasoning) that its wrong. That aside, as far as where the behavior comes from -havent any of you ever watched your cute house kitty, while it systematically tortures a mouse, or baby bird to death, leaving the animal unconsumed at the end?

Is the cat evil? Or is it just genetically and instinctually programmed to do what we perceive as something cruel and evil- to tune its hunting skills....? So because the cat is relatively stupid, i guess it gets a pass... but the behavior exists in the animal world- outside of our own.

My overall point is this. We while in possessing a relatively large brain for our size, and admitting that this brain operates in some ways that exhibit some stark differences from our animal brethren, are not so far as we like to think above or ahead of them.

We still possess the fight or flight response. We still do many of the things we do (even subconsciously) because of our "old" brains- that havent forgotten how tough it was to survive in the actual brutality of nature.

It is what makes us human, when we think through and past that animal behavior, and arrive at what we consider to be "good", or we show pity in the face of what lurks just below the surface- an animal capable of terrific savagery.

To think, for whatever reason, that we're so different than the rest of the animal world, is a fairly ignorant way of viewing things- in my humble opinion.

Art

[Guest RedRatSnake]

There doing a good job i'll say, out of all the different types

around the world, not one has ever been captured or killed by

man and brought to science to study.

That is just an awesome record ~

Tim

[Bonehead74]

At least not one that you know of, RRS.

[Guest RedRatSnake]

That really should say ~ Anyone else

Tim

[BobbyO]

There doing a good job i'll say, out of all the different types

around the world, not one has ever been captured or killed by

man and brought to science to study.

That is just an awesome record ~

Tim

I can't imagine the first thing on the mind of an Indonesian Tribesman if they killed an Orang Pendek would be " Quick, let's get this to the West so Scientists can study it "..

After my 8 Years now in SE Asia, i think it'd be fair to assume that the dead Orang Pendek would be in a Pot being boiled before you could even say " No Payton, no Colts "..

[xspider1]

No offense, but that sounds like a supreme cop out... I still assert that the lack of footage or photos of adolescent Bigfoot is troubling.

The cop out is suggesting that we somehow know that there are no troublemaking adolescent Sasquatch. The siting reports, footprints, images, etc. etc. indicate a natural variation of theses Creatures in various sizes, including babies. Before Gorillas were 'discovered by science' which would be more likely to see: a trouble-making adolescent or a mature silver-back?

[Guest]

Art posted:

"A human enjoying torture? Is it really "evil" ? I happen to believe it is in our case, because we have the capability of "knowing" (reasoning) that its wrong. That aside, as far as where the behavior comes from -havent any of you ever watched your cute house kitty, while it systematically tortures a mouse, or baby bird to death, leaving the animal unconsumed at the end?

Is the cat evil? Or is it just genetically and instinctually programmed to do what we perceive as something cruel and evil- to tune its hunting skills....? So because the cat is relatively stupid, i guess it gets a pass... but the behavior exists in the animal world- outside of our own."

To equate a domesticated cat torturing a mouse to human behavior up to and including genocide is a stretch. Please show me an example of a wild animal committing the equivalent of the Holocost, the Stalinist purges, the Kyhmer Rouge genocide, or any of the dozens of other cases of mass slaughter. Please feel free to show me an animal equal to Ted Bundy or Jeffery Dahmer. Or for that matter, show me an animal that sold out his fellow animals for a small sum. Where is the traitor in the animal kingdom?

If you want to argue elimination of the weak as cause for the genocide and not any different from the horse example. Then show me the animal equivilant to an Albert Schweitzer or a Mother Theresa. Sorry dude.......we are wired differently than animals. Your lame PBS wildlife show analogies don't cut it!

[BobbyO]

How about this for a thought...

Again dealing with that neotenous human brain- is not much of what we call "evil" attributable to our more base animal instincts ? Things we do, that when we do them, we ignore the reason and cognitive thinking that our larger brains have given us, and revert to a more animal behavior?

I would even suggest that even some of the most heinous things that people/humans do- that we label "evil" are more related to this base animal instinct that we all like to hold ourselves above. Why? because since we started down this big brain path eons ago- one of the 1st things we did was to hold ourselves above the rest of the animal world, and tell ourselves that we're so different than all of our animal relatives-both the close and distant.

Mass murder? Simple... the strong want to eliminate what they perceive as the weak. Maybe other animals dont take it to the scope or scale that we do, but the behavior is there in the animal kingdom.

I've seen horses run up and bite, and kick at an old sick horse- trying to drive it away from the rest, or even kill it if necessary.

To be cruel? No, not in the horses mind. It see's the weak old dying horse as a threat- because more than likely it will draw in predators which has an overall effect on the rest of the herd.

While we know in our big brains (we like to say "our hearts"), that it was wrong to do so- it was the objective for the holocaust, and many of the worlds worst genocides- a "cleansing" of the races. Elimination of all that was perceived as weak or damaging to the future, in that the perpetrators saw a "perfected" human existence, without mental disease, or ethnic and physical characteristics they saw as "undesirable".

We hopefully all recognize the flaw in this thinking, or at least in the tactics they chose to use, to go about solving what they saw as "the problem".

But where does that thought process come from? Is it really "evil", or just being weak enough to revert back to a more cruel and animal way of thinking...? Because genocides are still happening right now today- even after we were supposed to have learned our lesson so many times. Apparently we havent.

A human enjoying torture? Is it really "evil" ? I happen to believe it is in our case, because we have the capability of "knowing" (reasoning) that its wrong. That aside, as far as where the behavior comes from -havent any of you ever watched your cute house kitty, while it systematically tortures a mouse, or baby bird to death, leaving the animal unconsumed at the end?

Is the cat evil? Or is it just genetically and instinctually programmed to do what we perceive as something cruel and evil- to tune its hunting skills....? So because the cat is relatively stupid, i guess it gets a pass... but the behavior exists in the animal world- outside of our own.

My overall point is this. We while in possessing a relatively large brain for our size, and admitting that this brain operates in some ways that exhibit some stark differences from our animal brethren, are not so far as we like to think above or ahead of them.

We still possess the fight or flight response. We still do many of the things we do (even subconsciously) because of our "old" brains- that havent forgotten how tough it was to survive in the actual brutality of nature.

It is what makes us human, when we think through and past that animal behavior, and arrive at what we consider to be "good", or we show pity in the face of what lurks just below the surface- an animal capable of terrific savagery.

To think, for whatever reason, that we're so different than the rest of the animal world, is a fairly ignorant way of viewing things- in my humble opinion.

Art

Absolutely bang on the money that Post Art, you're on a roll lately that's for sure..

[Guest Tontar]

Art posted:

"A human enjoying torture? Is it really "evil" ? I happen to believe it is in our case, because we have the capability of "knowing" (reasoning) that its wrong. That aside, as far as where the behavior comes from -havent any of you ever watched your cute house kitty, while it systematically tortures a mouse, or baby bird to death, leaving the animal unconsumed at the end?

Is the cat evil? Or is it just genetically and instinctually programmed to do what we perceive as something cruel and evil- to tune its hunting skills....? So because the cat is relatively stupid, i guess it gets a pass... but the behavior exists in the animal world- outside of our own."

To equate a domesticated cat torturing a mouse to human behavior up to and including genocide is a stretch. Please show me an example of a wild animal committing the equivalent of the Holocost, the Stalinist purges, the Kyhmer Rouge genocide, or any of the dozens of other cases of mass slaughter. Please feel free to show me an animal equal to Ted Bundy or Jeffery Dahmer. Or for that matter, show me an animal that sold out his fellow animals for a small sum. Where is the traitor in the animal kingdom?

If you want to argue elimination of the weak as cause for the genocide and not any different from the horse example. Then show me the animal equivilant to an Albert Schweitzer or a Mother Theresa. Sorry dude.......we are wired differently than animals. Your lame PBS wildlife show analogies don't cut it!

Give them guns, bombs, gasses, and then we'll talk. I agree with Art, he makes good, reasoned, and informed comments. He doesn't seem to be obsessed with murder and genocide and child abuse. You left out the 9/11 attacks, Pearl Harbor, Hiroshima, , Desert Storm, and a lot more that I am sure you know all about. I think someone might have some issues with such things. Art's point is that we are not so different from our animal relatives. Different, but not SO different as some would like to believe. Art's comments also seem to be steered by his "big brain" as opposed to his less rational emotions, fears and hatreds, so it encourages a deeper consideration of whether it makes sense or not. I don't need to defend those comments, I think they make sense on the surface as well as stand up to deeper scrutiny.

[Guest Tontar]

There doing a good job i'll say, out of all the different types

around the world, not one has ever been captured or killed by

man and brought to science to study.

That is just an awesome record ~

Tim

Unfortunately, not a perfect record. Mermaids have an even better record, as does the Chupacabra, werewolves and unicorns. None of them have ever been filmed, so clearly they are doing a much better job of evading people.

Joking aside, I don't think that ultimate avoidance of capture or clinical discovery bolsters the case for their elusive prowess. The longer this goes on without an actual subject in hand, the more doubtful their existence in the real world. We can debate until the cows come home, and make up all sorts of wonderful attributes that bigfoots might have in a perfect world, but the world is not perfect, and if bigfoot exists in this real world, one would have to turn up to give credence to what would otherwise be folklore. Unfortunately, none have so far. Even the Yeti scalp is made from goat skin.

What might seem like an awesome record of avoidance, lending hope to the idea that bigfoots are fantastically endowed stealth critters, the flip side is that we don't have evidence to support that idea, as we don't have sufficient evidence to support the mere existence of these guys. And why people see logical, or scientific proof as some sort of evil authority that wants not to believe in them, I have no clue. The thinking world is not just trying to burt everyone's bubbles. :-) There just needs to be a somewhat greater level of proof and evidence for some people. For others, it doesn't always take a lot of evidence to believe in things. The film is the film, but there are also films of a lot of other things that have not been proven to exist. Aliens, for example. Ghosts. The Loch Ness Monster. Plenty of films. I guess they all have their own support groups as well, but just because people believe in them doesn't make them real.