The Echo Incident

[southernyahoo]

You're right , behaviors aren't taxonomy, but some are suggestive of intelligence and tactics.

[Guest zenmonkey]

Why does this always have to turn into one of these conversations??? Bipto you mentioned a lot of parallel behaviors with great apes especially chimps. My hypothesis was always possibly close to orange. I know its a bad question but any one trait that leads you more on the chimp side rather than bonobo or orang??

[Guest DWA]

You're right , behaviors aren't taxonomy, but some are suggestive of intelligence and tactics.

 

Which aren't unique to primates.  Canids, felids, raptors and corvids, at least, do the same.

 

'Intelligence' isn't something on which we've cornered the market.

Edited May 21, 2014 by DWA

[Guest]

I'd say that if the apes are hammering the cabin with with rocks and then dash away before you can get outside to even see them then this is more like a prank that human teenagers will play than the more instinctual territorial display of other apes. This is just one example from your own accounts where the correlation of behavior is equally aligned with human behavior.  It's not flawed logic, because the behavior in your own accounts demonstrates their intent to stay out of sight most of the time and foil your ability to lock onto them. I also know of no other accounts of apes that will pretend to be a log on the ground as a stealth tactic.

And maybe such behaviors really do signify human activity -- of the more mundane sort.

[Guest]

What other reason is there to hide in a tent? The point being if they can't see you then you can't see them and the threat IS gone in their minds.

 

Isn't this why it is employed?

 

Well, sure, but can we not agree that any animal is more likely to enter camp if they think they aren't being observed? We've seen all manner of animal activity increase via Overwatch from fox to raccoon to even a duck that wandered through one night. 

I know its a bad question but any one trait that leads you more on the chimp side rather than bonobo or orang??

 

Chimps like to toss rocks and they're fantastic tacticians that work well in groups to accomplish a common goal. We see parallels in all the great ape species. To us, there's bits of orang, chimp, gorilla, and even some monkey behavior we've identified mixed in there. 

And maybe such behaviors really do signify human activity -- of the more mundane sort.

 

This again. 

[Guest DWA]

This doesn't need to be an "ape."  It can be classified on a different branch of the primate family tree, the same way, say, australopithecines are, only extant rather than extinct.

 

Taxonomists may not pigeonhole it in the current categories.

 

But show anyone a human - regardless how "primitive" the culture - and we see what we consider clear earmarks of humanity.

 

Which are conspicuously missing from sasquatch evidence.

[Guest]

But show anyone a human - regardless how "primitive" the culture - and we see what we consider clear earmarks of humanity.

 

Which are conspicuously missing from sasquatch evidence.

 

100% agree. I would argue there are literally no human traits present in wood apes.

 

And we're not saying it *has* to be an ape, only that it appears, based on behavior, to be one. 

[Guest DWA]

^^^Right.  Short of taxonomy:  all one can do.

[southernyahoo]

It is true that many nocturnal animals will venture into camp when the noise dies and camp lights go out for the night. They are just less aware of your presence, but these apes are doing more than just wondering in. They slap the cabin sometimes then dash off without getting seen. They do know you are there it would seem and they want you to know that. So why make their presence known but not let you observe them at length?

 

I think they want to hide and watch you, without being watched themselves. Whoever wins that game walks away with the most intel.

[1980squatch]

And we're not saying it *has* to be an ape, only that it appears, based on behavior, to be one. 

 

But, you guys are trying to shoot one, so in a sense it does have to be an ape.  I am not in the human camp but way in the back of my mind I have doubts re: pure animal.   You guys cannot afford to have any. 

[Guest DWA]

^^^No, it can be something that isn't an ape, and isn't Homo sapiens, just like P. boisei (one of Meldrum's ancestor candidates) isn't either:  

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CWskTTE9l-s/T5WJi3JlB7I/AAAAAAAAKrI/T0SRmV2CbcI/s1600/early_hominid_family_tree.gif

 

I think this whole "human/not" simply obscures the issue, which is:  biology demands a specimen, and there are ways of getting one; and the way we treat our very own kind tends to negate much of this discussion, anyway.

 

They can't afford to have any doubts.

 

And they don't.  Me neither.  In fact, the way I look at it is that we won't know for sure - barring something no one can foresee - until somebody bags one; and as WSA recently put it, the blood of that individual will be on the hands of the scoffers.

Edited May 21, 2014 by DWA

[Cotter]

@Bipto - Is anyone at camp right now conducting any operations?

[southernyahoo]

This doesn't need to be an "ape."  It can be classified on a different branch of the primate family tree, the same way, say, australopithecines are, only extant rather than extinct.

 

Taxonomists may not pigeonhole it in the current categories.

 

But show anyone a human - regardless how "primitive" the culture - and we see what we consider clear earmarks of humanity.

 

Which are conspicuously missing from sasquatch evidence.

 

Well how about your avitar for the earmarks of humanity and definite great ape. Come on DWA, there is no tail reported on a Sasquatch.. 

[Guest]

So why make their presence known but not let you observe them at length?

 

I think they want to hide and watch you, without being watched themselves. Whoever wins that game walks away with the most intel.

 

I don't know why they do that. As I said, it could be interpreted as instinctual behavior or perhaps, as you say, they're just jacking with us. It's my feeling on the matter that at least some of them do want to watch us. Others may want us to leave. I don't presume that each animal acts the same or has the same motivation as the next. 

But, you guys are trying to shoot one, so in a sense it does have to be an ape.  I am not in the human camp but way in the back of my mind I have doubts re: pure animal.   You guys cannot afford to have any. 

 

I'm agreeing with DWA that there may be a new classification of primate along with ape, monkey, human, etc. Not that they're human. I've only said about a hundred times we don't think they're human at all. 

@Bipto - Is anyone at camp right now conducting any operations?

 

I don't want to be too squirrelly on this, but I'd rather not say specifically when we are or aren't there, who's there, what we're doing specifically, etc. 

 

That being said, as I mentioned in the other thread, we've started previous operations earlier in the year than now and later in the year than now so it wouldn't be an absurd assumption for someone to think we're getting close to this year's ops. Similarly, if I were to stop posting here unannounced for ten days or so starting, oh, I don't know, day after tomorrow, the casual observer would be free to draw from that absence whatever they want. Maybe I'm going to Disneyland. Never know. 

[Gotta Know]

Say, while you're in "Disneyland", I did have a question for you. Should you actually put down a nine-foot Grumpy, would this site be among the first to hear of such an advance in science, or among the last? (along with the rest of the media sites).

 

Just curious if you can share what some of your protocols might be for sharing with the world. Is it enough to say "we got one, stay tuned!", or do you only share after vetting and permission of the authorities? Apologies if asked and answered--I've just never seen that question specifically raised over the last year. Cool if you can't share.

 

Good luck. Sounds like you're headed to the happiest place on earth for BF enthusiasts.

 

GK