Doug Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Actually the snail darter is not a snail. It is a fish. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catmandoo Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 6 hours ago, norseman said: And because some snail lost its ESA status that this is somehow applicable to said bipedal ape man? If Bigfoot was discovered tomorrow? It is all about the money. The Snail Darter fish was in the way of commerce / tourism. The good old boy network crushed the ESA listing by using an act of Congress. Clever move. For Sasquatch, I would guess that the initial 2 industries that come to mind to crush an ESA listing would be forest products and real estate. And then there would be the aboriginal / indigenous land rights issues. The North American Wood Apes have demonstrated that they do not need protection. If they can fool humans into making sound shots with large caliber weapons, they are on top of their game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 2 hours ago, Catmandoo said: It is all about the money. The Snail Darter fish was in the way of commerce / tourism. The good old boy network crushed the ESA listing by using an act of Congress. Clever move. For Sasquatch, I would guess that the initial 2 industries that come to mind to crush an ESA listing would be forest products and real estate. And then there would be the aboriginal / indigenous land rights issues. The North American Wood Apes have demonstrated that they do not need protection. If they can fool humans into making sound shots with large caliber weapons, they are on top of their game. Good luck. A bipedal ape man in North America would be like finding a T Rex in the Congo. Tourism? Oh boy….. Strange. Brian Brown made a video in which he was very concerned with logging in the Ouachita mountains could adversely affect the species. Because? Once again we are not talking about the stealth or cunning of a creature. Or the hunting prowess of Bigfooters. We are talking about the health of a complete species based on how the land in treated. Also, the situation in Oklahoma may not be the situation in other states thousands of miles away. Basically what you’re championing is just a blind flip of a coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catmandoo Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 5 hours ago, norseman said: Good luck. A bipedal ape man in North America would be like finding a T Rex in the Congo. Tourism? Oh boy… There are stories about a dinosaur in Africa. IIRC, in the Congo and it is something like a Brontosaurus. The geo-political-ethnic battles interrupt the tourist trade. 5 hours ago, norseman said: Basically what you’re championing is just a blind flip of a coin. I am not championing anything. I have pointed out several times that without a Linnaean taxonomy classification, this thread is moot. Magnum moot. 38 pages of mootness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 2 hours ago, Catmandoo said: There are stories about a dinosaur in Africa. IIRC, in the Congo and it is something like a Brontosaurus. The geo-political-ethnic battles interrupt the tourist trade. I am not championing anything. I have pointed out several times that without a Linnaean taxonomy classification, this thread is moot. Magnum moot. 38 pages of mootness. Unproven stories. Yes I am aware. If there was a real Jurassic Park in the Congo? People would be too busy getting rich selling trinkets to tourists to worry about shooting each other. No. You said they are doing fine. While waving your hand around and talking about personal experiences. So no classification is needed. Right? Like the Limey Leprechauns in the UK. Who stop road projects evidently. I will do you one better. Without classification? The species itself is MOOT. They could slip quietly into the night and nobody would be the wiser. A biologist once was asked about the dangers of being “pro kill” with highly endangered species. His answer was simple. If removing one specimen from the population dooms it to extinction? The species is doomed anyhow. Better to take the specimen and prove its existence to science than to let it slip away into the dark. And with future technology there is a real chance that science could resurrect the species from that one type specimen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backdoc Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 (edited) Is there such a thing as a pre-emptive endangered species? There are animals we know existed at one time thought to be extinct: Passenger Pigeon, Dodo Bird and so on. If I killed a Dodo by accident or with intent, the result is the same: A dead Dodo bird. I would think there must be some established penalty to kill an endanger, known, and dying off animal. This makes me think if there is some standing penalty for extinct animals. That is, should an extinct animal be killed today, I would think there would be some kind of trouble. This takes us to Bigfoot. If bigfoot exists, it will have to be in the same category as killing an animal thought to be extinct. If something is extinct it no longer exists. The establishment thinks Bigfoot is essentially extinct as it no longer exists (Giganto) or never existed in the first place (folklore). Whatever rules apply to an Extinct animals should also apply to Bigfoot. Right now, science would tell me there are no passenger pigeons. Science might also tell me there are no Bigfeet running around either. If I killed either, the result would be the same: Something we are told does not exist would be proven to exist and killed. Bigfoot and Extinct Animals are the same essentially. There is no difference in that neither are right now thought to walk the earth. The only difference is the passenger pigeon was known at one time to walk the earth and they have a body. If I shot a bigfoot (an unestablished animal) i would think the laws that apply to killing a passenger pigeon would apply to Bigfoot. Edited March 22 by Backdoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incorrigible1 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 38 minutes ago, Backdoc said: Is there such a thing as a pre-emptive endangered species? I would think there must be some established penalty to kill an endanger, known, and dying off animal. This makes me think if there is some standing penalty for extinct animals. That is, should an extinct animal be killed today, I would think there would be some kind of trouble. Warm fuzzies aside, I believe you've made a gigantic assumption. And then built upon the unfirm ground of that assumption an entire pyramid that will crumble if a single stone is kicked away. I'd suggest first confirming your initial assumption. I'm not saying it is or isn't true, but that at this point, it's an unproven assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backdoc Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 ^^ I am just trying to put the hypothetical into the world we live in. It's a hypothetical until we have a body of bigfoot regardless if one believes in bigfoot or not. I am trying to see this as someone killing a bigfoot. Then, after this occurs whatever rules effect other animals thought to be extinct might apply to the situation. Some like to assume our authorities or Government know all about bigfoot. Others even might think that same government is creating them in some Island of Dr Moreau- type of lab somewhere. Meanwhile for those like me who don't see it that way, I am trying to just take Bigfoot as a concept and place him in a world where rules governing near-extinct, endangered, or actual extinct creatures exist. Some, like the bald eagle. are no longer endangered and we see them all the time every winter in my part of Iowa. Yet, if I killed one there are rules in place for fines or jail time. I mention that example to show sometimes society puts rules on the death of certain animals. In the bald eagles case it is not because it is near extinct but for other reasons. If bigfoot was killed, I just wonder how those rules might come into play with Bigfoot. That is all. Not everyone has to agree with my more limited view or assumptions about bigfoot and that is fine with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 6 hours ago, Backdoc said: Is there such a thing as a pre-emptive endangered species? There are animals we know existed at one time thought to be extinct: Passenger Pigeon, Dodo Bird and so on. If I killed a Dodo by accident or with intent, the result is the same: A dead Dodo bird. I would think there must be some established penalty to kill an endanger, known, and dying off animal. This makes me think if there is some standing penalty for extinct animals. That is, should an extinct animal be killed today, I would think there would be some kind of trouble. This takes us to Bigfoot. If bigfoot exists, it will have to be in the same category as killing an animal thought to be extinct. If something is extinct it no longer exists. The establishment thinks Bigfoot is essentially extinct as it no longer exists (Giganto) or never existed in the first place (folklore). Whatever rules apply to an Extinct animals should also apply to Bigfoot. Right now, science would tell me there are no passenger pigeons. Science might also tell me there are no Bigfeet running around either. If I killed either, the result would be the same: Something we are told does not exist would be proven to exist and killed. Bigfoot and Extinct Animals are the same essentially. There is no difference in that neither are right now thought to walk the earth. The only difference is the passenger pigeon was known at one time to walk the earth and they have a body. If I shot a bigfoot (an unestablished animal) i would think the laws that apply to killing a passenger pigeon would apply to Bigfoot. Logical question? Why would a governing body create laws to protect extinct species? Let's say the USFWS passes a law making it illegal to kill a T Rex? They would be the laughing stock of the world. This is not even remotely close to the subject of Bigfoot. Lets say Catmandoo is correct in his assumption that Bigfoot populations are healthy and stable. Then why would we put them in the same category as an extinct species? Here is my personal belief. If Bigfoot is discovered in say California? It is such a unique, rare and very human like animal that the knee jerk reaction will be to protect them. We have laws on the books already that protect Bigfoot such as Skamania county. If states started passing protection laws? The federal government is going to follow suit. Its going to be a media frenzy. It will be huge. Lots and lots of public pressure. No one is going to open a hunting season for them like a Bear or Deer. They are much too human like. Just like laws are passed to protect other great apes currently. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catmandoo Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 17 hours ago, norseman said: So no classification is needed. Right? Like the Limey Leprechauns in the UK. Who stop road projects evidently. Classification in the Linnaeus system is needed / required. Get it straight. 'In an investigation, details matter'. Not Leprechauns. Fairies, and the word fairy has new world and old world spellings. The case of the M18 Motorway construction delay showed that without an American type ESA system, flora with a species listing and ancient history affected a modern project. The impact(s) of species listings do not necessarily have boundaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 55 minutes ago, Catmandoo said: Classification in the Linnaeus system is needed / required. Get it straight. 'In an investigation, details matter'. Not Leprechauns. Fairies, and the word fairy has new world and old world spellings. The case of the M18 Motorway construction delay showed that without an American type ESA system, flora with a species listing and ancient history affected a modern project. The impact(s) of species listings do not necessarily have boundaries. Get what straight? I have been advocating collecting a type specimen for classification for 8 years? You think they are fine as is….🤷🏻♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catmandoo Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 3 hours ago, norseman said: I have been advocating collecting a type specimen for classification for 8 years? They stay out of range of your 45-70. Better weather is coming so heal up that chest so you can get out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 5 hours ago, Catmandoo said: They stay out of range of your 45-70. Better weather is coming so heal up that chest so you can get out there. They stay out of range of my eyesight too….👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7.62 Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 8 hours ago, Catmandoo said: They stay out of range of your 45-70. Better weather is coming so heal up that chest so you can get out there. I went on your profile and read your hobby is wildlife photography . Other than seeing one have you had the chance to photograph one ? I ask because as with most members here I am in the category of never having a visual of one . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catmandoo Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 7 hours ago, 7.62 said: Other than seeing one have you had the chance to photograph one ? Yes, trail camera type images and nothing to write home about. I was watched from a distance beyond the range of the PIR as I checked a trail camera. Furball was hiding behind a big log. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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