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I'm going to use that for a lead-in. A few weeks ago a friend from high school days who I hadn't seen in over 20 years stopped by. He's spent the time out-of-country. Turns out in the gap he earned his PhD in anthropology ... kind of relevant. We got to talking about bigfoot. I showed him some of my track photos and a reproduction cast of a foot and hand print, played some audio I recorded, discussed both the pros and cons. He's not a "bigfoot believer" by any means but he said something relevant and within a realm he has the education and professional expertise to comment on. He said if someone showed up at a major museum with a box of bones, if they weren't immediately identified, they'd likely go on a dusty shelf somewhere and not be seen again for 50 years or more 'til someone got around to examining and cataloging them. So ... Smithsonian and disappearing bones ... not so ridiculous as the resident scoftics would have us believe and yet not necessarily because of the nefarious intent the conspiracy fanatics would have us believe, either. MIB

Antiscience creed? I have an anti-science fiction creed when dogma is trying to be passed off as science fact. Being close to 70, I went to college (Earth Science) in the mid 60s. We were told withbsolute certainty the history of mankind. It was mostly fiction and has continuously been revised since. Modern man and its ancestors are much older than previously though. What we were told were missing links were not even in our family trees. New ones have been found. Multiple simultaneous humanoids were living at the same point in time. We not only outlasted the Neanderthals but interbred with them. None of that was known when I went to college and what was being taught was no more than fiction. It was unknown what killed off the dinosaurs. They thought it was some sort of ice age and the reptiles could not handle the cold. A guy down in Arizona was trying to convince his geology colleges that the Crater in Arizona was from a meteor. They all thought he was nuts. Then in 1980 they started to find a layer of a certain mineral, iradium enriched shocked quartz that is created when a meteor impacts the earth right at the K-T boundary. The point in time where the dinosaurs died. For over 20 years oil companies looking for oil in the Gulf of Mexico had known about a huge crater like structure in the gulf floor but science pretty much ignored it. Not interested. Then the pieces started to fall together that had been known and ignored for over 20 years. Shoemaker was still thought of as a nut job. Until a comet was found that seemed to be about to impact Jupiter. Science figured that impact would be like a rock in a pond because Jupiter was so large. 9 fragments hit Jupiter with catastrophic effects, scars were visible on the surface of the gas giant planet, and some impacts were visible blasting debris into space with the force of millions of megatons, when the last fragments hit in view of earth. Shoemaker was suddenly credible. If a ball of ice and rock could do that to Jupiter, a huge rock hitting earth could be catastrophic. Anyway we now are fairly certain an asteroid impact killed the dinosaurs 65 million years ago and that crater in Arizona is called Meteor Crater. And now evidence is stacking up that those dinosaurs were warm blooded, covered with feathers, and not reptiles. And science was just as certain when I went to college they knew the truth about all of that as they are today. They were wrong and much what I was taught was fiction. Funny you mention the horse. Even though they originated in the Americas, they and the camel ended up in Europe and Asia and no were no longer in the Americas until reintroduced by humans. What was fact when I went to college is now fiction and wrong. How much of what we are being told today is hard science, will be thrown out as fiction in the next 50 years? The history of science to date suggests that much of it will be discarded as more is discovered. Nebulous belief about the Smithsonian? Several researchers have tried through the Freedom of Information act to get the Smithsonian to look for giant skeleton bones that were reported by multiple sources in the media at the time (Newspapers) to have been boxed up and shipped there. To date the response to these queries are they have no record of that happening, or they did receive something and it cannot be located. Are we to trust an institution that has such sloppy record keeping? What has been lost may not have been intentional but never the less what could be the finds of the millennium might have been lost. They have even lost stuff collected by Lewis and Clark. Have no idea where it went. They refused display the Wright Flyer for decades because two bicycle mechanics succeeded in doing what their prestigious staff and 100s of thousands of tax payer dollars could not do, fly a heavier than air airplane. They were deeply involved with the Manifest Destiny determination that the Native Amercans were simply hunter gatherers and had not developed a civilization or advance culture. All this in spite of archeological evidence with the Mound Culture in the Mid West which to this day is being suppressed. One director quit in disgust when he realized that the Manifest Destiny was a land grab from the Indians. If you want to cling to an organization in the name of holy science, pick one with a better reputation.

Hello All, Some interesting things regarding this subject. Bats don't just pick any cave to hibernate in. The temperature inside is critical in allowing them to slow down their heart rate, drop their own temperature and slow down their respiration rates. If it's too cold they will burn up too much energy. Too warm and they won't be able to lower their metabolisms. Also they are not really asleep and are always aware if something enters the cave either by light or by sound. The bats WILL begin wake up but it can take hours for them to fully be functional. They will rouse on their own occasionally to defecate, drink water and such but again it takes a long time to reach their naturally active level for movement. They may look like they are still asleep to someone who wanders in but they aren't. If disturbed enough or often the bats will leave the cave and go somewhere else. If Sasquatch does use caves in winter then it could be because of being able to help sustain themselves minimally on bats. The bats are helpless in their hibernation state and will be for hours but if it's winter and they leave they will die. There are reports of people finding dead bats outside of caves. The reason I'm bringing all this up is that if BF uses caves then they will only use them if there are bats? If the bats leave then so will the BFs? Do they follow the bats to see where the new cave is and then when a new winter comes move in to continue foraging on bats? Is this why there doesn't seem to be permanent dwelling evidence in caves? Because like some mention the refuges are temporary? I'm proposing that the reason they are temporary could be that they follow the bats who have left because of BF's presence. Many of you have seen me joke about when Sasquatch gets hungry no problem- just pluck a few bats off the ceiling. I Joked about it but I was serious about the idea. I think they do pluck bats from the ceiling as long as they can reach it or maybe take a stick to pry them loose. The bats of course won't tolerate the disturbance and depending on how much winter is left will leave once they are roused enough to respond.

They can move with the help of the canine kind, lol. Though in truth you make a fair point. Find the bones and some might believe. Though bones have been found in the past and mismatched, improperly put together and even lumped in with other animals all together (not talking Sasquatch here just to be clear). It has resulted in for years people believing X animal existed when later it was proven to be a mix of bones. One example that comes to mind is the Brontosaurus. It was thought to be a need dinosaur and marketed that way (for lack of a better term). Later it was discovered to be an Apatosaurus. W, Several years ago, I was shown a series of photographs of what appeared to be a burial event. They were taken at a distance of almost half-mile with professional equipment (what the photographer does for a living) and were indeed compelling and thought provoking. There (at one time) was a website devoted to communications between people having interaction(s) with these entities. Unfortunately, repeated hacking attempts caused the site to be removed and other means of communication were devised. Admittedly, realizing this opens the avenue for ridicule, there are several venues where such individuals congregate but will likely never be seen, presented on a website such as this one.

One possibility is bigfoot hand digs out it's own cave or tunnel with a tiny, hidden entrance on some rugged forested mountain humans have never climbed. They pick a location it knows humans won't find. There are reports of these tunnels near Edwards Air Force base and others out there. A vet here told of the North Vietnamese Army digging miles of tunnels, and we missed most of them. Fararcher also pointed out BF knows where humans don't go such as remote cliffs with hidden caves or large rain proof ledges. Ostman's BF's lived under a rock ledge. A remote cave that goes back 30' is probably enough for BF to be comfortable.

What flips me out is when the stump is not there when you go back. This stump(?) was not there a few days later, even though it was present less than 24 hours after this picture was taken. When something was there, the next day, I figured stump. When it was gone the next week I am left with the mystery of where it went and what it really was. Here is the original digital picture before it was blown up.

Dave It is probably a Portland to Spokane flight or someplace in Montana. Departures to the North PDX to Seattle are mostly West of I-5. Arrivals to Portland from Seattle, do a St Helens arrival which has them just West of Mt St Helens. They fly pretty much over my house every 30 minutes headed South. BTW, I have watched that ridge line being logged for several years. It is the next ridge North from Kloochman Butte. Kind of sad because when that ridge was heavily forested, I could sit on the flank of the Butte with my spotting scope and watch for BF on the next ridge. So bare now I doubt that they would be there in daytime because of the logging. I was looking at Silverstar and spotted a dark figure down in the valley below. I stared at it and nystagmus made me think it might be moving but figured it a stump so put my camera in 30X telephoto to take a couple of pictures. Was a pretty convincing stump until viewed at 30X. One of these days I will get something that is not a stump but sadly will probably not realize it until get home to look at the pictures. The habit of BF to rock back and forth, when spotted, does not help, when nystagmus makes your eyes move and gives you pretty much the same effect. Makes one wonder why BF does that rock back and forth thing.

You seem upset science strives to be self-correcting. Edit: And yes, I mentioned evolution of the horse as another example of evolved in N America, moved east into Asia. You'd already mentioned the camel.

An animal of the size frequently reported could/probably make use of a rock shelter to get out of wind/snow/rain. While a Sasquatch seems to be uniquely well adapted to weather the elements, what animal prefers to be cold/wet? Especially given the caloric requirements. My issue with BF using caves on any regular basis is mainly just an appreciation of how tight a fit your average solution cave is for even the average size human, let alone an animal possibly three times that size. That, and most caves are dead-ends....even though water and air may find a way out, most all reach a point where they don't "go" for the average sized caver. Again, would a giant BF do any better? It would seem to me an animal as sophisticated and wary as a BF would always leave itself an exit route. I'm less persuaded by the lack of BF evidence in caves. Caves are by their very nature dark, inaccessible places, and the number that have been truly examined and excavated is tiny. (But, let's not overlook Lovelock Cave either) I have personal knowledge of an individual who discovered a Neolithic skeleton right near the entrance to a local cave, one that had been explored by countless numbers of cavers over many decades. Rising Star Cave in S. Africa is another example of how alcoves can be overlooked, and how geologic formations will cover evidence as well. There is also the standard observation about so many things related to BF: To increase your chances of finding something you need to be looking for it.

If the bones are new enough to contain testable DNA, that's two (maybe three) for the price of one. While DNA may not prove a species, it can invalidate a lot of claims of other identification. Taken together, DNA, physical size, and age should eliminate the known candidates leaving, though not specifically identified, the presence of an unknown fairly well established. It doesn't answer the question but it should remove doubt that there is a question worth investigating ... a worthy next step if you want academic involvement in the search. MIB

They can move with the help of the canine kind, lol. Though in truth you make a fair point. Find the bones and some might believe. Though bones have been found in the past and mismatched, improperly put together and even lumped in with other animals all together (not talking Sasquatch here just to be clear). It has resulted in for years people believing X animal existed when later it was proven to be a mix of bones. One example that comes to mind is the Brontosaurus. It was thought to be a need dinosaur and marketed that way (for lack of a better term). Later it was discovered to be an Apatosaurus.

It's your anti-science screed I oppose. A nebulous belief the Smithsonian have conspired to hide knowledge of human or bigfoot cultures is unproven at best, crackpot or more at the worst. I cannot say humans did not first evolve on North America, but such a belief is right up there with Edgar Rice Burroughs, lost continents, and living dinosaurs roaming remote hill. It just ain't so. Known N American primate remains are the size of squirrels. Also, don't forget the rather complete fossilized evolution of the horse, which did occur in N America. http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/horse/the-evolution-of-horses

But if science has stalled? would it not benefit science to use these groups as control groups . This way they could recover greater data from these creatures while using these groups as a control. It just makes sense to create some thing like this, where people who have knowledge in certain fields of study. Could go within a database and can study these control groups and began to understand a living entity living in our forest. The reason amateurs seem to be the first at discovery, IMO . They are always in the field and seem to be in the right place at the right time of discovery. It is when they cannot understand that science gets involve, this surprises me of our past. Of all the time that one has been shot in the past, not one has been studied by science. So this does leave me scratching my head to why? Why has it only been reported in the 1700 - 1900 that these creatures have been shot but never studied by science. Maybe science has already studied this subject and already knows the truth. Maybe this could be why science has stalled as well. Science is stalling this on purpose since it already knows and is either very nervous or maybe scared of change. Again this is JMO. The problem as I see it is that nobody can use anything from these groups because either: i) they are clandestine and anything they find is kept, photos not shared, evidence not shown - how many times have we heard stories about habituation sites and people who are regularly seeing (and interacting with in some cases) creatures but cannot or will not share the evidence for one reason or another ii) they are simply not having the experiences and there is no 'habituation' going on Science in this case will not be done by people in white coats in labs, it will be done by amateurs in the woods and forests. It has stalled as no new evidence greater than that already provided is being produced. Science will be advanced when amateurs who are in the right locations produce evidence that can forward the case..........the bite marks on the bones being one example which is actually different from the other evidence produced - this actually seems quite a promising line of enquiry in contradiction to the topic at hand. The trouble is, producing more ambiguous, blurry photos will not move anything forward. Producing more unclear foot print casts will not move anything forward. Providing more tales and anecdotal evidence will not move anything forward. Progress would come with something like a series of clear HD photos or video, fossilized remains, bones, DNA and so on. Basically for those of us who don't claim to 'know' and have not moved to 'believe' yet we need better evidence not more and more of the same.

Baldershash? Care to venture a guess at what percentage of the species on this planet that have left a fossil record here or anywhere else? I will not even humor you by giving you the answer. Hint! It is a lot closer to zero than 10% It is like walking into a library, picking out twelve books at random, and creating the entire history of humanity from those twelve books. Mostly guess and conjecture on the part of science.

IMO, if you want to "find" BF, find the bones, live ones move around, their skeletal remains don't.

Bigfoot "science" has stalled in the sense that it's hard to do much more without, well, data. I am impressed with the NAWAC group's monograph and Brian Browns 2013 presentation because at least here is an attempt to behave scientifically. Short of a body, some of their work has a "false positive" or Type 1 error feel in my opinion. This could be avoided (or tested) by sending teams into Sasquatch free "null" areas and see how many times many of the vocalizations, stone throws, etc. happen. Obviously this would be difficult to do and require some kind of deception (as in a placebo controlled trial), but it would be very VERY useful to establishing the statistical reliability of non-biological data and understanding the degree to which observer bias plays into their reports. Then the data they collect could be effectively tested against something. And by testing I mean actual statistical analysis with a p-value. I hope this isn't stepping on too many toes.

Balderdash. There has been discovered a long fossil record of an enormous amount of North and South American flora and fauna, from prior to and ever since the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction event.

Hello TritonTR196, Allow me to sweeten the pot if I may: Number of mines in Washington-515; Oregon-589. http://www.abandonedmines.gov/ Abandoned Mines: ID- 8-16,000 WA- 2,000 OR- 5,800 MT- 4,900 NV- 10,600 CA- 17,700 These are probably big and deep enough to stand in. A word of caution: they are also big and deep enough to die in if one isn't careful and that includes Humans as well livestock along with any unwary wild animals. It happens.

Raise your hand if you've lived with a bigfoot clan for more than a year in an area where there are all kinds of great dens, caves, log structures, etc.............................. opps ....... no hands. Well, I'll be ....... So that puts us in the..... green horn ......... ignorant........ newbe ......... beginner category with training wheels when it comes to caves and Bigfoot. It's a good thread but the bickering will ruin it soon. Then we can go back to the forest service and bigfoot! Maybe we have it back..ass wards. Bigfoot might like to den up in a cave, then when some curiosity seeker comes along, it grabs it and eats it. It's a trap system. A huge 9' bigfoot up to 1000 pounds is not worried about being trapped.......... it wants to be trapped. Come and get me. Come on in fool an ambush is ready! Bigfoot expends no energy and the food comes to it. Pretty smart ................ Bigfoot probably knows humans like to explore caves so it cleans up and leaves during the day through one of the multiple exits. It buries all bones and left over hides and waits for the next victim.

Well , I had an encounter in 2010 when me and a family member headed back to spot right after he said a loud vocal sounded off near where he was near this property , we got back in there with a spot light and 2 rifles { I do not use light anymore and the guns where for just in case something came at us } and when the screamer came into to about 35 to 40 yards we had the spotlight ready. Well when we pulled the guns off our shoulders this thing started grunting , growling and stomping around pacing a halfe circle around us in the treeline. I aimed the spotlight at the direction of the grunting and stomping and could see nothing due to all the thick aspen and maple and I would say I was off target of this things location by about 10 degrees, well the second the light hit the trees this thing bolted and everytime it's feet hit the ground you could here small branchs breaking and really loud impact sounds of what I am sure where it's footfalls that quikley became distant. We both where shaking , I remember how much the spotlight bobbed around when I was trying to hold it still and we both looked at each other and blurted out that we need to leave. LOL we walked back the whole way looking over our shoulders with our guns in had and waving the spotlight like a laser pointer and just when we reached the property edge near the road when we heard 2 loud whoops come from way back in there and they echoed for what felt like miles. I again was over welmbed with pitted fear and I threw up { sorry , it sounds gross I know } and paniced and said , , lets run to the road ! ,,. We made it to the road and left from there for home and when we got there we where trying to talk to my parents about what had happened and we where both still so freaked that we could not expliane what had happened without sounding like crazy people. Since then I read Morgans book and I remembered that night and about the moment the guns came off our arms, I am a deer hunter my self and I believe that they know what guns are and what they can do. They have seen hunters lift guns up toward deer, pull the trigger and drop an animal. To them it may look like a hunter is a danger and a food thief. This maybe the reason that hunters and guys in camo with guns most often get escorted and pushed out with the use of branch breaking and other strength displays. But with all that said , I think carrying a gun { such as a small pistol } is a good idea but I would make it blend with my clothing and make sure it would be kinda slim and not budging out easy to make out. For me it is the same about what clothing I wear , I no longer wear hunting camo or camo packs , I now wear performance clothing with lots of internal pockets and spaces and all of my field clothes a dark solid colors such as OD greens , deep earthy browns , greys and blacks. I was told by a good friend and fellow researcher ,, look like a hunter and you get treated and viewed as a hunter. ,, I now have no doubt that this is true.