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A flesh and blood origin for part of the Bigfoot phenomenon need not be seen as precluding the possibility of a paranormal origin for part of the phenomenon, and vice versa. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that human-appearing entities of paranormal origin exist--for example, ghosts, shadow people, Nordic extraterrestrials, or whatever. The existence of such entities obviously does not mean that flesh and blood humans do not exist. Likewise, the existence of flesh and blood humans does not immediately rule out the existence of ghosts, shadow people, etc. The same logic holds for the Bigfoot phenomenon--the existence flesh and blood Bigfoot would not render the existence of paranormal Bigfoot impossible, and the existence of paranormal Bigfoot would not render the existence of flesh and blood Bigfoot impossible. Both could coexist, and the "true" Bigfoot phenomenon could result from a combination of both. I would even add that, given the tendency of reported paranormal entities to superficially resemble some conventional organism or construct, perhaps it should even be seen as likely that, if paranormal entities exist, some of them might imitate flesh and blood Bigfoot.

CMF, taking the wider picture into consideration I can see where some would read some conspiracy thinking into things. In the face of it there are two things going on. One is the pile of reports that keep coming in coupled with the knowers here on the Forum. The second is the extreme level of surveillance capability in North America from local hunters and trail cams all the way up to satellite imaging and other defense parameters such as border patrol and everything in between. What's in between those two or three facets of surveillance is everything and everybody else who goes into the wild and its perimeters either for data collection by various fields of study or those more in the area of recreation. And of course there are natural resource entities and the people and agencies that run and regulate them. Especially on the public land front. So if one truly thinks Sasquatch is a creature that's out there then it would be a natural line to take that someone else must know about them. If the thing we call Bigfoot exists then it is nearly impossible to think it has escaped all of the eyes and ears that government has out there. In reality it makes no sense at all for that to be the case. None. Does that make me a conspiracy person? Maybe, but just on the surveillance point alone it can only go two ways: The creature is out there, or it isn't. Conspiracy theories are called theories because they cannot be proved. It's a mantra here on the Forum but only a body will settle ALL of the issues, discussions, and debates on this subject. But for the sake of this thread the extreme mega-surveillance capabilities available and in use today would naturally push more toward someone in authority knowing of Sasquatch's existence. But again, only proof of existence will clear the air. Good topic though, thanks.

Drew, I can understand why the paper might have been considered as not all that relevant. No where did the paper mention blunt force trauma- and you know it. You're on a witch hunt and maybe you could explain yourself a bit? That paper for as short as it was carried a lot of info on substance abuses by the victims. Alcohol consumption, psychotropic drug use by a high percentage (78%) of the women, alcohol abuse in the men 50% and the big fact- no mention of blunt force trauma. IMHO it seems to be the biggest indicator of why FarArcher "disregarded" the study. I don't know why you seem to have it in for FarArcher but it would seem from your recent postings here it appears that you do. ICBW of course so don't take this as my own witch hunt because believe me I have much bigger fish to fry.

It seems like you missed my point. I will try again: There are certainly nuts in the bigfoot world. It draws them like flies to stink. However, if you're around a while you'll see the same people show up in other areas of interest as well and they're just as far off the deep end in those contexts as they are in this one. Stable people are stable people no matter what the interest is. Unstable people are unstable people no matter what the interest is. Certainly the conspiracy theorists are out there. That's not a doubt. What I meant to say is I see little evidence to support their claims that the conspiracies they perceive actually exist. I suppose it is like the old saying "don't assign to malice what can be explained by ineptitude", just tweaked a little to fit the moment. Some people in this world are fearful of being small and irrelevant, they seek significance beyond their capabilities which manifest as delusions of grandeur bordering on clinical narcissism. I find this a difficult concept. To me there's freedom to be found in NOT having the world revolve around me. MIB

The one I got up close to - if I'd had a 30-30 - I sure wouldn't have fired as I'm not sure that would be enough to survive my enthusiasm. That S&W 460 magnum is just about the foot pounds as a 30-30. I wouldn't mind carrying one, but I'd hate to have to rely on it - just like that would not be my preference against a big, coastal brown bear. Better than nothing - but I'm a bit cautious when it comes to shootings.

Bigfoot also knows when you're awake He knows if you've been bad or good I think Waggles is limited on responses, for a time, so I just wanted to add to the seasonal nature!

Wait, your implying that the BF population in Washington are now aware of thermal technology because a person went back to a site and measured the supposed height of the BF captured on therm the night before?

Talking about ridges made me consider the four experiences I have had. None were sightings but each was an encounter. The first was knocks coming from the ridge above us. There was a sentinal up there and it was answered by two other individuals in the creek below. The next time one came down from a ridge above us, probably looking for a meal as we were cow elk calling. It approached very noisily to 80 yards, saw us, and knocked twice before leaving very quietly. The third instance was a knock on a ridge above us at 1am. The last time we were hiking up one of the few creeks still flowing in the area last August and heard rock clacks and an answer off to our right both further up the hill above us. The last instance was a trackway we found after the individual had been spooked from an area near a trail. It could have gone in any direction. The easiest and quickest being down a creek and out of sight into thick cover. But instead it chose to run uphill toward the ridge top. Always up, always higher. Coincidences, maybe, but it could also be strategic. The high ground.

Upon my encounter the first thing that got me after realizing that they really were actually for real was that I was in Colorado and not the PNW yet here it was. The second thing that got me was the sheer size of it- 6 feet seated on its rear. It's arms were bigger around than my legs and its legs were massive. I figured if it was standing it would have been at least 10 feet tall!

Fair. Wish I could drop names thus giving credit where credit is due, but "a really good friend" suggested that where possible, bedding areas might be tucked up under the foot of a bluff where they can't be approached from above. It sort of resonated with your question about them maybe not detecting what is above them. It might provide safety in a direction they're otherwise particularly vulnerable. From a strategic perspective, only having to post watch in one direction instead of two might have advantages too .. of course, it could prove a trap if something gets close enough from below and you can't escape upwards. Just thinking out loud. MIB

You're the expert on hypothermia undressing - you tell us. Use simple logic. It'll come to you. I recall a mass hypothermial undressing of sorts. Folks appear to have gotten too cold, suffered from group hypothermia, cut their way out of their tent, and walked away in the snow - only to die. Place called, Dylatov Pass. Maybe this is a good example of what you're talking about. First two bodies (both named Yuri) were found at the base of a large cedar tree, with remains of a fire, but per your postulation of hypothermia - being out of their minds, they tried to climb the tree - as evidenced by limbs broken off fifteen feet high - as evidenced by tree bark embedded in their hand tissues. They were found in underwear and shoeless, with the temperature around 5 degrees F. Every single one was only partially dressed - to your point. Dyetlov and two others were found in a line, suggesting they may have been trying to get back to the tent (I assume in a moment of hypothermial lucidity). Dyetlov was found on his back, a twig in one hand, the other covering his face and eyes as though to avoid something. Slobodin was found face down with a deeply fractured skull (maybe another mysterious characteristic of hypothermia?) Kolmogorova was found with traces of blood around her body, but no obvious signs of struggle. Hypothermia undressing is weird to say the least. The other four were found - more - or at least partially dressed - two months later as they had been buried in twelve feet of snow - and all died of massive internal injuries. Thibault-Brignol had major skull damage. Dubinina and Zolotarev had their chests crushed inward with enough force to break ribs and rupture organs - but oddly - no external bruising or lacerations. Doctors who examined the bodies could come up with no explanations on how such powerful trauma could have been imparted on their bodies - reminiscent of a major car crash. Dubinina was found with her head thrown backwards as in a scream, without a tongue which had been ripped out at the base or eyes - which had likewise been removed from their sockets. Per your postulation - hypothermial disrobing certainly does a good job of explaining this event. Mystery solved.