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It is easy to say, "I'd have done this or I'd have done that" in the situation, however unless you were there, it's IMO talking out of one's arse. Further context: The evening before, some of the GCBRO/BFRO'ers went on a walkabout with the TI binoculars (which is why the batteries failed the following night) and returned to the campsite announcing they had seen ~8 BF. The leader of that squad walked past our tent with a bottle of JD in one hand and his Marlin model 1895 slung in the crook of his arm apparently oblivious to the fact he was dragging the barrel through the gravel of the dim road. Needless to say the three of us were far more concerned about this type of behavior than anything BF would do to us. As far as ragging on a particular group, their two episodes on cable TV speak volumes. BTW, on a subsequent outing one of their participants was discovered returning from the timber adjacent to camp with a boom box in hand, screams and howls having just eminated from that area. Supposedly, no one had been apprised of his intentions beforehand. IMO, anyone bent upon carrying the water for this bunch does so at extreme peril of their own credibility.

SB, If your post was directed at me, we didn't know it was gut shot until well into the thicket when the evidence of such was discovered. It was just a few minutes later when the wounded one began growling at us. With all that transpired to that point and Lansdale ordered us out, one of the guys was so apparently traumatized we had to literally take him by the arm and walk him out. Another guy in there with us was armed with only a flashlight and camera. IMO, M. K. Davis has balls the size of grapefruit and has always impressed me as a person of candor and honesty. All I will say to those postulating upon how they would handle such a situation....be very careful what you wish for, pilgrim.

Agreed, somewhat, cautiously. There seem to be a lot of assumptions made that should be questioned. If they traveled the coastal strip which is now underwater, or if they traveled on the ice over areas now submerged, how many fossils will there be? How many human remains have we found underwater off the coast from that time? How many human remains have we found in north america in permafrost ... omitting deliberate burial there? What do you think their numbers were relative to mammoths that you mention? I don't think most states have a stationary breeding population in the sense you're suggesting. It's not relevant. The numbers might not represent a viable population if stationary and in isolation, but they're not stationary and it's not in isolation. I think the travel web is such that there is a diffuse but very viable breeding population that overlaps all 49 states with concentrations in many that are indeed viable even in isolation. MIB

In reply: FA, the shooter was using a H&K semi-auto in .308 caliber and a borrowed set of Gen III NV goggles but had a regular (~30 MM bell) scope on it hence the break in target acquisition when going from the NV to the scope not to mention he may have experienced a degree of night blindness which is often the case when using green or red NV lens. Also, it was clear, ~25 degrees Fahrenheit, no wind and a full moon facing him just to starboard. GK, The sniper was a member and employee of the Caddo Nation based out of Anadarko, Oklahoma. He did tell me (before the shot) that his tribal elders would "have his head" if they knew where he was and what he was up to as these entities are regarded as sacred and never to be harmed except in cases of obvious self-defense. This same philosophy was confirmed by my Yuchi elders as well once I began to delve into the history and context of these beings. Norse, I was reared that alcohol and firearms had absolutely no business together in the field and I'd bet you share that philosophy. As mentioned, after my shot, the GCBRO/BFRO people out on the perimeter apparently became agitated enough to cause the hunt organizer to order us out as things could have easily went "western" had one of them "saw" something. I agree it was a muffed opportunity with the loss of my samples as who knows what conclusions the findings of Dr. Fahrenbach would have furnished. Point of order: When this event occurred, I had been involved in Sasquatchery for <2 months and as such, was totally green to the ramifications of such an endeavor. Nonetheless, it still took another ~14 months to come to the full realization of the folly, risks and the unholy aspect of the whole pro-kill agenda.

Yuchi did just fine. I know some folks - most folks only believe there are five senses. There's a sixth, and even a seventh that manifests itself very, very rarely. Seems like Yuchi experienced his sixth sense in that rush he described. Especially as there were two other critters they could hear, and one was approaching Yuchi from behind. Apparently, the hunt organizer was smart enough to realize that not only was the initiative was lost, but tactical control and coordination was lost as well. To continue - under those circumstances - with all that adrenalin released, someone was likely to get shot and killed. If you'd only had Norse with you . . .

I emailed a request for information about dead bears and cougars found in the wild to the WDFW. This is the answer I received from a biologist in Wenatchee. Quote- Thanks for the note. We do keep track of every known mortality statewide. But outside of legal kills, poaching (not many), and roadkill we only see 1-2 unexplained deaths for bear and cougar per year. Cougars are much more territorial than bears so it’s likely there are more undocumented deaths due to fighting that we don’t know about. They also die from injuries sustained during prey acquisition (like getting gored by an elk antler) about but finding them is a challenge. Bears die for other [reasons] too, but they live a much more gentle lifestyle being omnivores vs an obligate carnivore like a cougar. So short answer is yes we do keep track, but the tally is very low, and certainly not complete. Thanks for your interest. Hope this helps ********************************** Bear & Cougar Specialist End Quote So if we calculate those numbers with respect to cougar and bear population numbers we end up with 0.1 % of the estimated 2000 cougars in the state of WA and 0.008% of the est. 25,000 bears in the state. That is if 2 dead animals are found. Also, as he mentions, an omnivore like a bear is less likely to be found and we still don't know how bigfoot treat their dead. So from his answer I would say that the likelihood of finding a bigfoot body is very low even if they aren't buried. Regardless of how healthy I think the bigfoot population is in the state there are probably less than 2000. If we use that number and the dead bears found percentage we would end up with 0.16 bodies found per year or one every 6 or 7 years. In that period of time bones are scattered, buried in the forest floor or just plain gone. That is with 2000 individuals. That puts it in perspective, which is what I was trying to do.

Personally, I felt profound sadness when I read that post. Not sure how Sniper lives with himself.

Man, Yuchi, that was tough to read. I went back through the thread and did not see the original story from 14 months ago, but your recap here seems sufficient. What a waste. What's done is done, but the whole notion of trying to collect a "specimen" is full of ugly realities. It seems clear the "sniper" was not up to the job, and the recovery process was not all that it should have been. I'm not trying to point fingers so much as to acknowledge that was just an ugly, ugly event. As a hunter myself, I sense that risks were taken that needn't be. Another way to put it is that I'd expect more respect is typically given trying to take a trophy whitetail. As I said, just a waste. When I began my investigation into this phenomenon some four plus years ago, I'm certain that I leaned toward the pro-kill line of thinking. With all the study I've done and my own interactions now (no sighting), I am decidedly in the no-kill camp. To know that this creature--and its mates--suffered unnecessarily just saddens me. Not intended as a flame--as I said, what's done is done. I just think your story should be a message to all wanna-be "collectors" that their chance for success is extremely low. While their chance for getting someone killed is extremely high. But thanks for bravely putting your account out there. I hope others do see it for what it is--a cautionary tale.

Is there even any doubt at this point that this is anything other than an elk lay? Why? Because it's just an elk lay.

May well be true. I have to try anyway. I'm not so concerned about it here in the PacNW. I would not try it in the SE US. The attitude is different. MIB