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Kit, thank you for further evidence showing that you're not thinking clearly. The images might account for the lay with sufficient imagination, but you haven't pointed out any tracks from where the elk stood up. Obviously it was on its feet AFTER it got up, so the body didn't press out the tracks. SO WHERE ARE THEY? Show me a hoof print in the "body". Show the hoof split ... unavoidable if it is bearing weight. Show the outer rim on both sides at ones. You can't. They're not there. So, despite your wishful thinking, whatever it is, that is not an elk lay. MIB

Twist ... Try taking your shoes off and go deer hunting barefoot. Until you actually do it, rather than just speculate about it, you simply can't comprehend how incredible the difference is. MIB

I've noticed.

It was about 40 feet from me, when it went by me, It was daylight, Just in the tree line. Running from my right to my left. It was running as fast as my dog runs. if I hadn't looked up when I did I wouldn't have seen it. It was fall and more than half the leaves were off the trees, that's how I was able to see what it was. Even though there was leaves on the ground, it made no sound when it was running. Believe it or not is your choice. How it runs silently, I don't know, but I know that it does because I witnessed it. I can also tell you it was not huge or 600 pounds. It was about 6 feet tall and slender.

hiflier - It's not "lucerne" .. that's a brand of yogurt and other milk products. It's Lausanne ... the full, real name of what we refer to as the Sykes study is the Oxford-Lausanne Collateral Hominid Project. That is University of Oxford in England where Bryan Sykes used to be faculty and University of Lausanne in Switzerland. I'm not saying there is or there is not, but frankly, if there is some kind of cover up, Sykes is one of the keystones. Your whole question of "doesn't he know" is entirely naive. MIB

No .. you're asking good questions. I'm not a DNA expert but I used to beat them up on college biology class tests. Kryder made an incredibly good point regarding the Ketchum study. I'm not a Ketchum fan "but", and the but is this: she, probably with Erickson's money, did indeed buy the De Novo journal, which looks pretty bad, but as I understand it, the paper had already passed their peer review prior to the purchases, it was just a way to get past the lawyers that blocked publication. That doesn't change the fact that the data she releases is less than 10% of what is necessary to substantiate her claims. The balance between those two bears further contemplation. One of the interesting things in the Sykes study was that he was able to have material tested at the US F&W Forensics Lab in Ashland, Oregon. That lab refuses to look at anything not related to a wildlife crime .. so why the exception? Some older, BFF 1.0, folks here may remember past (banned) member Ace! who went to the lab to find out about sample testing and what he was told. This should raise red flags. I don't think we should jump to any conclusions based on this .. yet .. but it is worthy of some carefully and deliberately raised eyebrows .. and patience, maybe years of patience. I remain confident that I could get samples tested if I had good enough samples I was willing to pay for the testing out of pocket, but I'm not going to say how I'd do that and have someone start plugging the leaks. If there really is someone out there interfering, my silence in that regard means they have a lot more expense and a lot more guesswork trying to head me off. MIB

I relistened to the Kryder video I posted. He talks about the Sykes testing @ 18 to 20 min. What he said was the sample were supposed to go through a preliminary ID process. But it seems that didn't happen because Sykes came up with some known animals that should have been eliminated but weren't. Kryder's sample was a good viable sample, which he verified to come from the subject species within less than a minute of passing, wasn't tested. He was informed much later the sample was sent to Switzerland to be tested at a later date. At 34 min. Kryder addresses the issue of having sent more samples to Dr Meldrum later to get tested locally. Again finding out later that they had been sent to Sykes, even after agreeing otherwise to stay local. The whole point off his discussion was an integrity issue. They aren't doing what they say they will or claim to be doing. Hiflier I also noticed that after I asked my questions in the video thread, you started this thread here. Just to share them I will repost them here. Because I still believe those issues need to be addressed. I have real difficulties with DNA studies. I'm constantly seeing information about getting DNA of some obscure animal or human from fossil finds and yet it seems we can't get a DNA test from a supposed extant creature. Whether we can compare it with anything or not is not the point. We should be able to test it as an unknown at least. I have to wonder how much that testing of the obscure fossil finds costs and how accurate it really is. In a lot of those tests we don't have a comparison sample on hand if the subject is extinct. It does make a person wonder what is going on. Contamination is also another bigfoot go to. I have to ask how a sample found in the ground after thousands or even millions of years hasn't seen some kind of contamination or degradation? If there is anyone knowledgeable here about these points please feel free to set me straight. Because they are reasonable questions that deserve an answer.

I used to assume the same. I don't anymore. The bigfoots appear to follow the deer and elk to their wintering areas, then hang out at the toe of the foothills above those flats. Look for short but deep canyons that break the wind and minimize snow drifting. It pays to remember that they're not naked humans, they're not merely cold adapted, they are INCREDIBLY cold adapted. I suspect they have more trouble getting rid of heat at 85 degrees than they do staying warm at -25 degrees. Behavioral adaptations address both. MIB

I found this to be an interesting article. I doubt the BFF most-dangerous poster approves, but from the standpoint of actual scientists, you might enjoy, too: In Memoriam: All Members of the Human Family Tree That Were Bested by Evolution http://www.ranker.com/list/human-ancestors-that-died-out/kellen-perry?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=post A glance at the evolutionary family tree of humans reveals that the three earliest-known branches are full of species that appear far more ape-like than the "caveman" stereotype associated with the Homo branch. Some of these strange-looking guys and gals are evolutionary ancestors of humans, but others might be hominids that just co-existed with the ancestors of modern humans, meaning we're related, but we didn't necessarily evolve from them. Thanks to the efforts of talented sculptors and scientists, we can look at models of these early hominids in museums and online, but the truth is that most of what we know about these species is from a few scattered bone fragments. The fossil record has been filled in tremendously since the first findings in the 1920s, so we're learning an extraordinary amount about the history of human evolution each year. Read on for a brief tour of the major hominids that predated the branch that eventually lead to Homo sapiens (that's you!).

Only way a Bigfoot can be totally silent in the woods is if the vegetation/leaf matter of the forest floor allows them to be silent.

I have a hard time believing there isn't snow in some of those areas that map is showing currently have no snow cover. Aren't there many ski resorts on the east coast? They all closed? The mountains on the east coast have no snow a the higher elevations? One other thing - and I have been feeling more and more this way the older I get - I am living in the wrong 3rd of the **** country (Montana). Living in by far the coldest city in the state (and a "city" here is 25K and up, and there aren't a lot of those), I am **** tired of 6 to 8 months of winter weather. Yes, I know, totally unrelated to the thread really. As far as the snow making them move - If that map is correct, there is a lot of area that is fairly mild to migrate too if they aren't adept at living in climates with consistent snow cover.

BS. On your best day, you couldn't find them either

Well in my experience you have a good point. I think they have two modes of travel. 1. Silent and stealthy when they know humans are around and 2. who cares who hears them because they think humans are not around. I have experienced both modes. When interacting with them a number of times and they know I am present, the only way I can get them to make noise when they move, is force them to move away by closing on them. Even then it is low thuds right at the lower limit of my hearing as I think they move from tree to tree maintaining cover and trying to keep out of my sight. I have been flanked and had one approach while I was forcing one to move by closing on it and never heard the one that had moved behind me, until it chose to break off a small tree or large branch to scare me. Just the fact that it was capable of that scared me more than the growl I got from the one in front of me. I have no illusions, it could not have moved in quickly behind me and got to a lethal distance before I knew it was there. I only heard it because it wanted me to so I would back away from the one in front of me. The encounter (my first) where I am pretty sure they did not know I was there, one was moving rabidly through dense forest with another, and making a lot of noise breaking down wood and as it got closer I heard heavy footfalls. 10 miles from the nearest human they are probably very noisy as they move, because they can move a lot quicker that way. For sure I cannot move as quietly as ones have around me. They have the stride length to carefully place each foot and avoid breaking dry wood. Also they can and do drop into quadrupedal mode and can move quite rapidly that way. Humans who have not spent years hunting or in the military cannot have developed skills like that. Certainly the radius where I can place a foot is a lot smaller than they have. Many down trees require me, in spite of fairly long legs, to crawl over or under them. An 8 to 9 foot BF could just step over them. While juveniles are often reported running, I really do not think that adults feel the need to do that. They can walk, faster than most of us can run. Most of us are not crazy enough to try to follow (I guess I must be). Certainly they can navigate heavily forested ground, faster than most humans can. It just dawned on me that the ones I was interacting with may have stopped that, because they thought I was nuts. Who in their right mind would try to corner a BF? I guess I have to admit to that. (Ice cream cone on the forehead moment). They got nasty after that growl encounter. Hmmmmm!

If we are calling kettles black, I'd have to say I'm getting tired of your idiotic nonsense. Is that black enough for you? I'm getting tired of your entitled attitude. You're not doing anything to resolve the problem, you're trying to manipulate others into doing the hard work, taking the risks, and taking on the expenses while you sit on the sidelines and get your itch scratched at their expense. We had a retired union organizer here for a while trying to do the same thing. I knew him from another forum where he tried that there. Now you're doing the same thing. The simple fact is if I had evidence of adequate quality to warrant the expense of testing, I wouldn't have any trouble getting it tested. Do your homework. Get out of your mommy's basement and off the couch. If you want it done, do it yourself. MIB

Sheri, you're not kidding! During my up close - accidental - encounter, this thing was (I hate to call it running, exactly) coming mighty fast in more of a crossing of the mountain slope, and I never heard anything. I was getting growled at real loud by what I assume was another one from the nearby cluster of trees, but for something that big to cover that much ground, and never make a sound - in reflection - was quite a feat. A week or so later, the team member that I had dropped off when all this happened, found another "sweet spot" with bars - and he went up the first switchback to again, call home. He came fogging it back down mighty quick, as he'd seen another. This was a bit different. There was an open area much like a meadow, and he said as he was talking with his back to the meadow, he heard heavy "thumps" and spun around to see what it was. He was shocked to see this thing shooting uphill in the meadow. He said, "You remember that scene in Jurassic Park, where the puddle of water showed the vibrations, and then the deep thumps as the T. Rex approached? That was what it was like." He wondered where it came from, as this was open ground, with only grasses and mountain flowers in the meadow. I told him that as he approached on the ATV, the thing flattened out in the field. Only after he turned his back on it, did this critter feel it was time to clear out of there. The flowers and grasses were not even knee-tall. And he wasn't looking for anything in the flowers and grasses - just a casual visual scan. Combine that ability with their natural "ghillie suit," and folks are just not going to see them. Most everyone's looking for an upright critter. No telling how many times I've been out in the wild and had one real close and never even thought about one - and it remained undetected. If you're out looking for six-foot, blue tinted, green-eyed men who wear turpentine-soaked rags around their ankles, shave their heads, and wear purple hats - if you don't see these blue tinted, green-eyed men with turpentine rags, shaved heads with purple hats - that you're expecting - you won't see them. They seem to make noise only when they want to - from everyone I've talked to, and from the hundreds and hundreds of narratives I've read. Good observation!

Is there even any doubt at this point that this is anything other than an elk lay? Why? Because it's just an elk lay.

That's great Aaron! Will definitely check out your table, see you there!