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Hmmmm ... no. You're not getting it. Go back to post #84. I said This applies to you as well. You can choose to wear blinders regarding the potential paranormal aspects. My chase does not end on your timetable or proceed by your limitations, either. You can quit, walk away, scoff, or whatever you do ... doesn't matter. The truth is not subject to your approval. If you are not searching for it WHEREVER it goes, you are not searching for TRUTH at all, merely for personal validation. Back to the original question ... it seems that for you, yes, science stalled ... when you abandoned it. MIB

There is no such thing as Bigfoot science. All there is, is the application of proven scientific principles, methods, and techniques for the investigation of an anomaly. The problem is with the anomaly itself; that appears to be weirder than most early BF investigators thought. The multiplicity of strategies that have been attempted to get reliable/uncontested physical evidence have all failed. Failure has not been because of lack of trying, effort, or application of creative ways. The scientific community should not get involved unless good physical evidence is presented (foot-print casts, blurry photos, controversial videos, and anecdotal stories don't have much evidentiary weight). Thus, I don't blame the scientific community for not getting involved nor I blame the BF investigating community for not trying. There is a reason why Bigfoot is part of the Cryptozoology and considered an anomaly - it is a tough nut to crack. If it was easy, then regular good old wildlife biologists and zoologists would have confirmed its existence long ago. It is stuff like this below, that makes it even harder for scientist to even look at the meager evidence, Regardless of whether ShadowBorn's claim is true or false, it makes the field look weirder: If true, the anomaly is weirder and stranger than many think. And, applying standard scientific methods will prove harder to uncover the truth. If false, it shows that the field is contaminated with many bizarre, unsubstantiated stories, that raise doubts about the whole field.

What a mess. We have folks who have never seen one really well and close, they say they don't believe they exist, and yet some are right here. Which begs the question - why? Then we have folks who have never seen one really well, and close-in, but through research and weighing the narratives they do believe they exist. Then we have folks who've had some experiences - sounds, yelps, crashing noises, stalking on the periphery, thrown rocks etc., but they've never seen one really well, and up close - but they too, believe they've had experiences with BF. Then there's the few. Those who due entirely to no fault of their own, HAVE seen at least one really well, and really close-in - yet they're entirely dismissed by the first group. They often enough just read and ponder exactly what they think these things are - based on observance and the circumstances of their experience. Science? It's neither advancing nor retreating. It's a non-issue as far as "science" is concerned. They don't exist. And "science" has created a carefully crafted narrative of human history, development, divergence from apes, distribution, and migration that absolutely cannot allow a large, relict species to exist. So skeptics skeptic, believers believe, and knowers know.

I think that if BF use caves for shelter even occasionally then I doubt there would be little use for burial. There are only so many caves, and the stench of death lasts a very long time.We have discussed BF burial or internment in other threads but my theory is that while they may use caves for burial in areas where caves are plentiful, if they wish to keep scavengers away from remains, in or out of a cave they need to do something to cover the remains. Digging, especially in forest or rocky soil, which in the PNW tend to be the same thing, is difficult to impossible with bare hands especially to cover something the size of a BF. It would be a big job with a backhoe and bucket. On the other hand in the PNW loose rocks are plentiful in most areas. Build a rock cairn over a body and you keep predators away. Humans in rocky places do the same thing with their dead. I think I may have even seen a BF rock cairn burial site out on the lahar at Mt St Helens. Oddly shaped rock pile, rectangular in shape, about 4 by 12 foot, with a obviously placed rock stack at one end that looked very much like a bird. The head/beak of the rock stack was delicately balanced and not likely to be a natural formation. The rocks in the cairn did not have a random helter-skelter look but appeared as if they had been placed to layer and cover something. Certainly I will give the skeptics acknowledgement it could have been man made. Washington Mafia stashing a body? I went back the next spring to see if it was still there but could not find the location. The bank above the location had given way and the best I could figure, had covered it up. I could not find the big logs I had noted to pinpoint the location when I returned either. In the interest if furthering BF research, I will give away the location. Just South of the Ape Canyon trail where it winds along the forested area just North of the Lahar. Eventually the trail will also landslide out as the soil is being undercut by the spring runoff down the lahar. Presently the location is where the Ape Canyon trail winds along on the forested ridge just above the lahar. I visit the lahar, when the spring runoff starts, hoping to find, a skeleton killed and covered by the lahar flow when Mt St Helens erupted. If BF are burying their dead in the same area, eventually they will wash out of the rocks too. The area near the lahar is active as within the last 3 years I have found footprints there as well as rock stacks near the footprints. However be warned that in the Monument, going off trail is punishable by a fine up to $500 according to signs in the area.

Hello Twist, Couldn't have said better myself We cannot let the members on the farther paranormal side of the subject slip through the cracks. It's the best way to recognize their experiences and efforts on everyone's behalf. And I agree it will work itself out by being able to have science work on the issue of physical existence first. Who knows it maybe science itself that discovers the more esoteric side although across the board it is something it shies away from in nearly all subjects. John Green, Dr. Krantz, and Dr. Meldrum study the physical evidence and have led the way regarding accepted scientific methods of investigation. And even though their efforts have fallen short we probably should have a program or path that follows suit..

Regardless of whether ShadowBorn's claim is true or false, it makes the field look weirder: If true, the anomaly is weirder and stranger than many think. And, applying standard scientific methods will prove harder to uncover the truth. If false, it shows that the field is contaminated with many bizarre, unsubstantiated stories, that raise doubts about the whole field. +1, very well put Explorer. The BF community has done a lot of good things in trying to debunk this phenomenon in regards to field research and various "angles of attack" so to say. Where the BF community shoots itself in the foot is when speaking on the multiple hoaxes and scams put out there by various people/groups as well as the claims made by the more paranormal side of it in regards to portals and psychic communications, I'd even go as far to include "zapping" in this. As hiflier stated, the BF community as a whole would be better off to focus only on tangible, and verifiable evidence to prove this animal exists. Get the ball rolling scientifically with known means of evidence that the scientific community is comfortable and knowledgeable in working with. IF, the animal is proven to exist, the rest regarding the paranormal side of things will work themselves out IMO.

Hello BigTreeWalker, Sometimes- actually many times- when one looks at the background of those who chair agencies or committees it is discover that they used to work for the very industry that is supposedly being regulated. It's called "regulatory capture" and it is a common phenomenon in government. The fulfillment of the perfect example would be the president of say Getty sitting in the oval office. So this doesn't surprise me and it follows that any official investigations into Sasquatch will have zero chance of getting off the ground. Maybe that's why Dr. Meldrum created it? To pressure TPTB?

Peeps ... science has not stalled. It's just not giving us the instant gratification we feel entitled to. (There's some deliberate judgment in those words.) We ... some of us, anyway ... are doing the correct thing: we don't have the answers yet so we keep looking. We do new stuff when we think of it, we repeat the old stuff when we don't. No matter what the scoftics want to tell us, we have not failed until we give up. The chase doesn't end on their timetables or by their rules. They can quit, walk away, scoff, whatever they do ... doesn't matter. That's about their search. Not mine. And not yours unless you allow it. MIB

Depends on what you call almost zero. I don't think we agree on definition. MIB Well if zero equates to over 20 Class A reports in WA State alone (24 actually) in the Winter months from December 20th until March 19th, then yeah it's almost zero.. That's from the SSR which incorporates the BFRO and all other public databases, and we haven't finished OR, NorCal and BC yet either.

Depends on what you call almost zero. I don't think we agree on definition. There are two parts to a sighting ... something to see, someone to see it. I observe that the number of potential people available to do the seeing is vastly less in the winter months and those who are there are demographically the ones least likely to file a report. I don't know where you're at / from, but you're talking about my home turf. Look at an activity break-down of the people who file the reports and, topographically, where the sightings occur. In the winter we have some steelhead fishermen but very few hunters. That means the BFs have to be stream-side to be seen. More than that, a lot of hunters camp either in campgrounds or dispersed camp areas. Winter steelhead fishermen generally don't camp, they stay in town and drive out. We have no summer family campers in winter so whatever they were doing and wherever that stuff they were doing took them where they had their sighting ... not happening in winter. Campgrounds are closed with the gates shut and locked. Can't even stop and use the outhouse in passing. The sheer number of people is so much smaller in winter that the opportunities for a road crossing sighting drop considerably as well. In other words, there is no case at all for hibernation once you correctly understand the context of the data. In fact, winter is the perfect time to be looking because the rain-soaked ground will "take" tracks better and the reduction in human traffic gives them time and "comfort" to get into places where you might observe one with less effort. You just have to be willing to put yourself out there in miserable wet weather. MIB

If bigfoot is eating bats, the forest service is putting a crimp in that behavior in the GPNF. They put bars on some of the lava tubes that are known bat wintering areas. Is this to keep humans or bigfoot out?