The Kill Club

[Guest]

do. I meant do.

[norseman]

 

Ok so we have some things in common, cool.....

 

As a fire fighter I'm well aware of how a IC works. I'm sure from a command tent a missing person and wildland fire look very similar. But this still does not change the fact that you do not find any of these cases to be compelling and I do.

 

Bodies do not simply appear on a trail that has been searched many times. Not unless they were placed there by someone.

 

Young children do not blow apart your search ranges in extremely rough terrain either.

 

If you have mundane explanations for these case facts and others that defy logic, I'm all ears.......

I guess I took that bait.

They never used to let me in the tent. I was always given a radio, map, etc., as part of a team, a ground pounder. You're right, I have specific experience and education related to missing persons as part of a search and rescue team, and I don't find these cases as compelling as you. Some people might consider related experience and education of benefit when discussing this, might even consider opinions of people with that kind of experience. I would.

I now work in an environment that puts me in direct contact (if there were an emergent situation) with the incident commander. Yeah, I've been the guy on the ground doing grid searches and now I'm the guy in the tent.

Children are natural climbers. People can cover significant distances. How fast does a person walk per hour? Over rough terrain? How many hours, in a 24hr day, would someone have to walk to cover the distances involved? What does dehydration, hypothermia, sickness from water-borne pathogens due to someone's otherwise rational thought processes? Do both children and adults make the same decisions when faced with a lost in the elements situation? You don't need to address any of these, they are rhetorical questions.

 

 

Not when it comes to mountain cliffs they are not. Climbing the elm tree in the back yard? Sure.

 

We have a 1000 ft cliff across the road from my house that goes all the way to the Columbia river. We were very wary of where our children were playing at all times because of this cliff. But when we would visit it as a family they were very timid around it wanting to hold my hand and just peek over. One of my three year old children was not going to start at the bottom of that cliff and climb it. A adult is not going to do it without climbing gear.......it's physically impossible. So unless the book is over stating the cliff in which the child was witnessed on top of? I find that peculiar...........yes.

 

And I've had beaver fever 50 miles from the pickup truck in the back country, I've also had the beginning stages of hypothermia. I cannot say that I ever thought irrationally, but I sure as heck was a miserable son of gun and vulnerable. In the case of the beaver fever, I started boiling water and kept pumping it down my gullet. With the hypothermia instance I stripped all of my wet clothes off and threw my sleeping bag under a big spruce and crawled in. I came away a firm believer in wool after that. But yes, every year we have lost hunters and sometimes they die from exposure, and yes they seem to do irrational things. I think the key is they wait to long to assess the danger they are in, and then when it starts really going wrong they are stricken with fear. And do stupid things.

 

But when a Yukon fish and game officer says that a particular bear attack is very very strange? Because something undressed a hunter before it ate them? As a hunter myself and a bear hunter to boot? Yah, I can relate to that being a very strange event. Bears have teeth, claws and brawn............not opposable thumbs. Of course there are less than desirable humans running around as well. And we cannot discount that.

 

I'm not saying we can just completely assign every strange disappearance to Sasquatch. But if a large ape exists out there? I wouldn't discount it either.

Edited June 1, 2013 by norseman

[Guest]

Children are natural climbers, regardless of what your children do or what you will allow them to do. They do not understand the danger involved like adults do. It's just a fact. That's not to say there isn't a peculiar instance in the book. Many people climb, children and adults, in order to get a better vantage. This is opposite the fact that walking down hill often leads to roads, homes and towns. Trying to get a better vantage, walking higher, often leads to steeper more treacherous terrain.

When a person has hypothermia it is irrational and natural for them to strip their clothes. It is in no way peculiar to find people stripped of their clothing when the temperatures drop and people are exposed to temperatures or weather that lowers their body temperature only a few degrees. It, removing clothing, also occurs in people who are exposed to conditions that raise their body temperature by a few degrees. If you find a naked person in the wilderness, it's probably because they suffered from exposure, and although irrational, it is completely normal. That is not an opinion, that is fact.

Not only can people, even walking .5 to 1mph, cover great distances over a two or three day period, but animals can certainly move bodies or parts of bodies over terrain you and I might not want to traverse.

If there are other things related to people found in the wilderness (why they take off their clothes, why they crawl into the strangest of places, why they walk in circles, why they are often found in or around water, and are found in places already searched), reading a book on the subject, which can be purchased through NASAR may be helpful.

I'm not discounting a BF. I'm saying that almost all of the encounters in the first 411 book that I've discussed with people had circumstances that were very easily explained through a little education and experience.

[norseman]

Concerning the books? I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[Guest UPs]

Once you start to look in areas that are not based on the facts, it becomes more and more unlikely. I have read all 3 books and the sheer volume is strange cases (in addition to the 1000,s of normal disappearances) indicates there is something gong on that we simply do not know about yet. The theory that there is an apex predator (bf) that lives across the US and Canada in small numbers and never predates on humans indicates to me that there is no bf. However, if they in fact do exist as described, of course they have predated on humans as history tells us.

The facts alone of many of these cases do not fit normal cases of disappearances and some are so outside of normal, you really have to stretch to make up something that would fit your own reality. I personally have no doubt that in many of these cases bf is responsible for the missing, but I do not have any bias against the author or see bf as anything other than an animal.

If I were involved in a search for someone who was missing and never found, I would immediately go to the highest and most remote area that was well outside of normal search grids and look there. If there were swamp nearby, that is where the person is almost always found in these cases, along with a nice big area where something else bedded down next to the body. It's no wonder so many of them were never found and parts of their remains are probably still there ( unless they were eaten like a few of them whose bones were found in tiny pieces).

When I read a quote from a sheriff or other official involved with the search say that they are completely stumped by the facts of the dissapeance, I believe them. Some of these cases bother these people many many years later, because they are so far out of the box. I think the author embellishes his own wording and I take that into consideration and a few of these cases could be just an abberation, but there are far too many and the facts just too bizarre for me to conclude all of them are. I myself was lost in a fairly remote area as a youngster, so I can relate a bit to some of them that were lost and what they would be inclined to do.

For those of you who do believe or know that there is a species of bf, do you believe they never predate on humans? To me that would indicate there is no bf at least as has been described (apex predator). UPs

[BobbyO]

For those of you who do believe or know that there is a species of bf, do you believe they never predate on humans? To me that would indicate there is no bf at least as has been described (apex predator). UPs

I don't believe they never predate on humans.

I think like all animals that are capable of preying on humans, they would if the circumstances were right for it to do so, no doubt about it.

Sasquatches are no different to any other wild animal in the respect where food and hunger is concerned and where other apex predators are concerned in North America, of course they'd take a human if it was feasible and the circumstances were right, just like Bears, Cougars and Wolves have.

I certainly wouldn't say they preyed on humans all of the time as you'd have to think that if that were to be the case, one would have made a big enough mistake to be discovered that had killed a human.

I also think that they would highly likely have a softer side at times too where humans can be concerned, I've read enough to convince me of this.

You look at ape behaviour, look at humans, look at gorillas , look at orangs and look at chimps.

Between them all you'll find extreme cases of compassion, as well as extreme cases of violence and brutality including canabalism within all of the species.

The Sasquatch I highly doubt would be any different.

[MagniAesir]

 

I just joined the Project Grendel Forum (PGF?) just before receiving your "shameless plug". Glad to be part of the conversation and more...

 

And I approved your membership!

 

Bon Apetite!

 

 

 

 

I just joined the Project Grendel Forum (PGF?) just before receiving your "shameless plug". Glad to be part of the conversation and more...

 

And I approved your membership!

 

Bon Apetite!

 I think I missed that link

[norseman]

Just for future reference, the link is on my signature below.

[Guest Grifter9931]

 

 

There are some very things in the forest.....

 

Last time I checked, nothing a .338 lupa could not deal with effectively at range. I don't care how big or fast or mean it is. If it gets kissed by that thing, its over.

 

Also I think most folks word associate "Kill club" to Species culling. 

And I don't think that's the idea you are trying to convey.    

[Explorer]

Norseman,

 

Have you read this old article on "Can bigfoot be killed?".

 

Not sure if the 5 cases listed are credible.

 

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/stories/jsteele.htm

 

Based on these stories it appears that a 30.06 rifle can not bring down a BF.

 

[norseman]

 

Norseman,

 

Have you read this old article on "Can bigfoot be killed?".

 

Not sure if the 5 cases listed are credible.

 

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/stories/jsteele.htm

 

Based on these stories it appears that a 30.06 rifle can not bring down a BF.

 

 

 

If those people made good hits to the vitals? That Squatch went off and died somewhere.

 

But your story illustrates the difference between a hunting rifle and a professional guide danger game rifle.

 

Grizzly and Polar bear, Cape buffalo, Lion, Jaguar, Rhino, Hippo, Elephant...........it's the professional guide's job to go "finish" the job of the hunter.....his client.

 

They are like rodeo clowns with rifles..........and better dressed.   And if he expects to have a long career as a guide he better be packing a rifle that will end a charge with one good placed shot.

[Guest]

That's why I prefer the .45-70, especially in something with a shorter barrel for the PNW where it's so wooded.

[WSA]

I thought it was interesting that only one of the five accounts mentions a blood trail, or lack of it. That would seem to be the most important detail to know, and every hunter knows the first question to answer is: Can I verify I even hit it. Yes? Proceed to tracking and recovery. No? Well, next time then. Most often the explanation for why the quarry did not go react or go down is because the shots went wide of the mark.  Even at point-blank range, there is no guarantee. Especially if you are being charged by a 600 lb. animal.  See: Grizzly bear.   

[norseman]

That's why I prefer the .45-70, especially in something with a shorter barrel for the PNW where it's so wooded.

i like my guide gun just wish it held more than four rounds in the tube

[Guest]

I have the Marlin 1895SBL, which holds a couple more, but realistically, I doubt a person would need them.