The Kill Club

[Guest]

Having human mitochondrial DNA but unknown nuclear DNA would mean that this creatures mother was human.  As in a hairy 8 foot ape impregnated a human woman.  Are there ladies out there that are getting it on with full on apes and then giving their hybrid babies back the forest?  That seems a little far fetched....

[Guest OntarioSquatch]

The term "unknown DNA" gets thrown around a lot on Bigfoot forums, but there's really no such thing as unknown DNA because once DNA is analyzed, you can tell where its place is on the tree of life and how closely the animal matches other species of animals. My theory now is that they aren't a hybrid, but something else that I think people don't expect.

 

Even if they are hybrids though, the nuclear DNA would still closely match that of a humans. Something like this will receive serious scientific attention, which is why I doubt Yuchi1's story. 

 

Testing nuclear DNA is a lot more difficult and expensive, which is why mitochondrial DNA is the preferred source when it comes to cryptids. No one expects Bigfoot to be a hybrid or something else where mtDNA won't work for identification, but it seems like it might be the case where this animal is literally what you would see in a sci-fi novel. 

[Guest]

I think you're massively underestimating the impact of an upright primate being discovered in North America personally woodslore, with "upright" being the key word.

The public fear factor might have a massive impact. I don't think it is going to be easy to reveal the existence of 8ft man beast out there in the National Parks. This might already be happening. Keeping it quiet for now. Perhaps they have been officially discovered but the authorities are trying to find out more? What are their behaviour patterns? Are they a threat? Have they been occasionally kidnapping people over the years? Perhaps even killing people?

It could even have the reverse effect. People getting so excited that a wondrous mythical creature has been discovered that people decamp to the forests en mass and try and get close to the big folks without knowing the slightest thing about them. Neither are going to be beneficial to the creatures themselves so perhaps that is an important reason why their existence may be being guarded for now.

There are many many possibilities that aren't really all that far fetched when we really think about it. The impact on logging, as you say, would be another.

People are afraid of the unknown and not what can be explained by science. Just look at the growth of the shark diving industry, post the movie Jaws, and with the explosion of documentary television.

But supposing bigfoot gets discovered or already has been discovered? Just because it might have been discovered doesn't mean science could or can immediately and automatically tell us everything about bigfoot. It will still be an unknown with regards to behaviour patterns, populations, threat or not to humans etc etc for a very long period until a sufficient amount of time has been spent in the field studying them. It won't happen overnight. Revealing there are scary looking 8ft powerful man beasts roaming the National Parks of the USA without knowing the slightest thing about them is probably going to create more problems than you might think. Those in the know will want to do everything they can for the benefit of the creatures themselves and perhaps they know that the very best thing for the moment is to keep quiet about them until more is learned and established.

With regard to Jaws, the flip side to Jaws was that in the short run before more was found out and people started campaigning for their protection, sharks were the bad boys of the animal kingdom. SCUBA diving actually took a significant nose dive in popularity in 1975/76. Sharks became even more vilified than they were before.

[Woodslore]

Bobbyo I don't think I am massively underestimating anything. I maybe underestimating to a degree but I highly doubt massively. History rewritten they didn't rewrite it for massive skeletons found in the desert. They didnt rewrite history for the Panda, the gorilla,they don't correct the fact there are lions leopards and cheetahs outside of Africa. Will laws be in acted? You bet they will. Will it kill a industry? Doubt it. So long as some rich guy or government is making money it won't stop. The unknown animals in South America doesn't stop the logging there. So long as big money is at stake it won't stop. That is the sad truth of the world.

[norseman]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Spotted_Owl

In 1990, the logging industry estimated up to 30,000 of 168,000 jobs would be lost because of the owl's status, which agreed closely with a Forest Service estimate.[8] Harvests of timber in the Pacific Northwest were reduced by 80%, decreasing the supply of lumber and increasing prices.[3] However, jobs were already declining because of dwindling old-growth forest harvests and automation of the lumber industry.[8] One study at the University of Wisconsin–Madison by environmental scientists argued that logging jobs had been in a long decline and that environmental protection was not a significant factor in job loss.[9] From 1947 to 1964, the number of logging jobs declined 90%. Starting with the Wilderness Act of 1964, environmental protection saved 51,000 jobs in the Pacific Northwest.[10]

The controversy pitted individual loggers and small sawmill owners against environmentalists. Bumper stickers reading Kill a Spotted Owl—Save a Logger and I Like Spotted Owls—Fried appeared to support the loggers.[8] Plastic spotted owls were hung in effigy in Oregon sawmills.[11] The logging industry, in response to continued bad publicity, started the Sustainable Forestry Initiative.[12] While timber interests and conservatives have cited the northern spotted owl as an example of excessive or misguided environmental protection, many environmentalists view the owl as an "indicator species," or "canary in a coal mine" whose preservation has created protection for an entire threatened ecosystem.[13]

Protection of the owl, under both the Endangered Species Act and the National Forest Management Act, has led to significant changes in forest practices in the northwest. President Clinton's controversial Northwest Forest Plan of 1994 was designed primarily to protect owls and other species dependent on old-growth forests while ensuring a certain amount of timber harvest. Although the result was much less logging, industry automation and the new law meant the loss of thousands of jobs.[4] However, new jobs were created for biologists conducting surveys for spotted owls and other rare organisms that occur in their range.[citation needed]

The debate has cooled somewhat over the years, with little response from environmentalists as the owl's population continues to decline by 7.3 percent per year.[14] In 2004 the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service reaffirmed that the owl remained threatened, but indicated that the recognized causes of endangerment had changed, mostly as a result of invasion by barred owls into the range and habitat of the spotted owl.

In 2007, the USFWS proposed a new recovery plan intended to guide all management actions on lands where spotted owls occur, and to aid in recovery of the species. Early proposals were criticized by environmental groups as significantly weakening existing protections for the species. The Obama administration reversed proposals that would have increased logging on Bureau of Land Management administered lands. Recent discussion has been focused on two novel approaches. One of these would emphasize wildfire management as key to owl persistence on the east side of the Cascades, and in the Klamath province. Another proposal, on control of barred owl populations through culling, has been criticized by some animal rights and other activists.[15]

Federal biologists were considering in 2010 whether to kill barred owls to see if that would help the spotted owls.[16]

[BobbyO]

Perhaps they have been officially discovered but the authorities are trying to find out more? What are their behaviour patterns? Are they a threat? Have they been occasionally kidnapping people over the years? Perhaps even killing people?

It could even have the reverse effect. People getting so excited that a wondrous mythical creature has been discovered that people decamp to the forests en mass and try and get close to the big folks without knowing the slightest thing about them.

.

If the bottom bit is even a possibility, then the probability of the top part is why they're keeping it under wraps.

[BobbyO]

Bobbyo I don't think I am massively underestimating anything. I maybe underestimating to a degree but I highly doubt massively. History rewritten they didn't rewrite it for massive skeletons found in the desert. They didnt rewrite history for the Panda, the gorilla,they don't correct the fact there are lions leopards and cheetahs outside of Africa. Will laws be in acted? You bet they will. Will it kill a industry? Doubt it. So long as some rich guy or government is making money it won't stop. The unknown animals in South America doesn't stop the logging there. So long as big money is at stake it won't stop. That is the sad truth of the world.

Ok well the underestimating thing is just semantics.

You're right, the books weren't re-written for Panda's, Cheetah's and whatever, but that's because none of which you've mentioned are upright Primates.

Upright primates, no other animal on the planet apart from human beings come even close.

The smartest animal on the planet, and all of a sudden, another one pops up, in North America of all places.

That's no cheetah, panda or lion woodslore.

But I do agree with you about the money stuff, however for me it's such a monumental can of worms that would be opened that it's just not worth this animal being discovered as far as the powers that be are concerned IMO.

And the article that Norse quotes says everything for me.

A reduction of 80% of logging in the PNW, for an Owl and no disrespect to any Owl's reading this, but an Owl > undiscovered upright Primate, it's not even on the same page.

[Yuchi1]

^^^ Makes one wonder if the timber and oil & gas people don't have teams out there...taking out the BF hunters (as they would be much easier to track & kill), in order to protect their own interests...now that would certainly be an interesting Missing 411 twist.

[BobbyO]

Anything is possible where humans and big $$ is concerned.

Life is cheap generally.

[Doc Holliday]

agreed bobby, I suspect the life span of anything / anyone that stands in the way of great profit is short at best.

greed is a strong motivator.

[Guest Divergent1]

Testing nuclear DNA is a lot more difficult and expensive, which is why mitochondrial DNA is the preferred source when it comes to cryptids. No one expects Bigfoot to be a hybrid or something else where mtDNA won't work for identification, but it seems like it might be the case where this animal is literally what you would see in a sci-fi novel. 

I'm more familiar with plant genetics but the reason mtDNA is used is because there are certain identifiers within the mtDNA that allow for species identification, the standard COI sequences for animals.. It's accurate but not 100%,  nothing can completely replace morphology. Although I don't support the pro-kill position I do understand why it's needed.

 

http://classic.rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/3/5/509.full

[Guest]

If the bottom bit is even a possibility, then the probability of the top part is why they're keeping it under wraps.

 

Absolutely. It baffles me how some people assume authorities would reveal bigfoot right away if a body ended up with them. Why would they? Conversely there are a multitude of reasons why they would be holding the reveal back until they find out more. A lot more. They will not come across a bigfoot body and automatically know everything about this species.

[Guest DWA]

I do sometimes wonder whether people know what they pay for every April 15.  If they think they are paying for the government to advise them as soon as they know about sasquatch, they might want to read the Constitution again.

 

I can think of no reason that any governmental entity would feel any obligation to spill beans about this.  The attitudes one sees here on these forums toward the subject are all the evidence I need to point to.  The government knows that on some things, people can't handle the truth; and they know that is not their job to fix or deal with beyond absolute need.

 

http://context.montpelier.org/document/175#passage-1

 

Read it.  All one needs is the first page or so.  Bigfoot is in no way in there, implicitly or otherwise.  Government sticks to its jobs.  Good reasons for that; and one sees lots of them here on the BFF.

Edited May 8, 2015 by DWA

[norseman]

How bout this part of the Federal government? Do you think Sasquatch falls under their purview? ( i know the answer to this one!)

http://www.fws.gov

[Guest]

Well let's put it this way, if the court finds it unlisted, they'll get you on it's stomach contents.... 

 

 

 

 

 

.. btw, don't underestimate the lack of justice inherent in a "government can't be wrong" scenario, since they can't be wrong, everything they do to the challenger is by default right.