Guest Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) ^^^^All of that conceded, I'm more interested in what people with scientific chops have to say about a host of consistent accounts than in what one person has to say about one person's experience. Until there's proof, none of it has more weight than any other part of it in the eyes of science, but in the case of the Meldrum/Alley/Shackley/Bindernagel etc. ilk, consistencies are being shown among large numbers of accounts that make clear how unlikely it is that they're all false positives. No matter how detailed...one person's story is one person's story. When that's about an animal that the society doesn't even accept as real yet... @ DWA What makes you favor the opinion of bigfoot believer scientists over the majority which do not? It seems that would be problematic. Wouldnt believers be more likely to mistake normal animal sign or hoaxes as evidence of bigfoot? I could point to the BCM tracks, or skookum cast as fine examples of that. I doubt you'll find any non bigfoot believer scientists claiming the BCM tracks were left by a sasquatch, or that the elk impression had anything to do with a mythical creature. I've noticed you tend to only value those scientists opinions which favor bigfoot as a real animal. What makes only those specific peoples opinions more valuable than the rest of the scientific world? Even Meldrum admits science requires a type specimen. I'm sure he has many excuses as to why none have been collected to date. (just as you will likely pine that "we havent looked") Time is running out on bigfoot claims. Pretty soon, we will have the technology to overcome any obstacles that could prevent such a discovery should bigfoot be a real animal. The claims are of a bipedal hairy ape like creature, not clothed, not with any special made tools, or technology in its possession. How could such a large purported animal escape collection in a country like the USA? Even in the bushes of Africa, this is what happens when large primates encounter man. With so many encounter reports, habituation reports in so many areas, it mimics other myths in many respects. The purported range would also mimic this, and the population of humans. Perhaps a small percentage of humans like to play jokes, or pranks. That would seem to explain the phenomenon much better than their being a real live huge ape like beast evading collection in the forests of the USA. Edited February 5, 2013 by LWD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 It is a very weird phenomenon. I cannot dismiss the seemingly credible accounts of all these people. It must mean something that all the stories are so similiar. People make an argument against alien abduction stories based on some collective bias from movies, books, pop culture etc. I never really bought into that much and I don't buy it with bigfoot stories. Having said that, I wish we could get a little more help understanding this bizarre narrative that these folks are experiencing. I do not feel entitled to any explanation, but would really like someone to give a detailed best guess of what all this means. I would have never called myself a bigfoot skeptic prior to coming to this forum, and still only feel the title applies in so far as no proof has yet to be accepted by science. I entertain many weird ideas about a whole range of subject matter, but also maintain a healthy dose of skepticism. I have asked some of this stuff before and this is meant with respect. Are we more likely to find bigfoot in proximity to people or the deep, dark wilderness? What do they want? what are they? Are they dangerous? They seem to change people in demonstrable ways, why? I have stated before my belief that the paranormal is only what science cannot proove today. What are these attributes? I think I understand the reluctance of some to open up, but also feel this would go along way to blowing the lid of the subject once and for all. I don't really care for titles, habituators in particular, but you guys seem to be in the best position to help turn the tide. I really do have a hard time understanding how they seem to detect electronics, but have no trouble peeking into houses. I also have a hard time understanding how protective many seem even though they consider them not our friends. I admit to being a chicken, and as stated before, would be packing up and heading for town if this, in some cases, unwanted behavior was ongoing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubbedfoot Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Here is something to ponder. Maybe the "habituators" don't need to provide evidence, they have evidence for themselves. They don't want to provide evidence because they might feel as though they are betraying the BF's trust. From what I know, interaction comes to those who are trustworthy. I will say this, I am friends with a few "habituators". They trusted me to show me pics, video and other things. There could be a few "nuts" out there sure, but there are some out there that are absolutely not. They want them protected and thusly, will not provide anything that could harm or jeopordize them. In fact, they are Extremely protective of them, and for good reason! KB If you don't mind my asking-- were there any images/video that are on par with the PG film? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeafTalker Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) From LTBF: "Are we more likely to find bigfoot in proximity to people or the deep, dark wilderness? What do they want? what are they? Are they dangerous?" LTBF, those are great questions, and they do truly seem respectful. I think there are a lot of great books out there, but my head almost popped off when I heard a piece of Christopher Noel's latest book read aloud recently. I would look at that book. (I think it's called Sasquatch Rising, or something like that.) I think it will answer all the questions you pose. ^ Plussed for us both! Thanks, Apehuman! Edited February 5, 2013 by LeafTalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) Habituators are a mystery to some people. I don't think they are special and I don't think they are lucky. If you are sitting on your lazyboy reclining rocking chair and see some bf outside in your yard, and you dash outside with kleig lights and a film crew, they are not going to stick around. If you watch them quietly and let them amble around the yard, over time they will become more comfortable. And so will you, apparently. They will catch you watching them and NOT screaming bloody murder, and maybe you see each other from a distance outside.... that is a habituation, I guess. Doesn't really take much. And I am not a habituator because I do not really welcome or have a relationshipo with them. Around my house, I take flash photos at night sometimes and if they don't like it they are quite welcome to leave. But trust me if you have them in your yard , after a spelll you don't like hearing the roof creak and hear stuff falling off it, clawing all the way down for a handhold, or wonder if that is what is casting shadows from it, etc. it makes you feel kind of different from other people in a way that is not at all comfortable. Edited February 5, 2013 by Kings Canyon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 It's on my list to read. I know a little about him. He seems smart and is a good writer. I'm sure I will enjoy it, but fear I will come away still wanting the big prize. I think this is also where Dr. Ketchum is headed. Write a book, provide no hard science, but tell a convincing story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeafTalker Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) @KC: I really feel for you! Your can of squatchaway reminds me of a Woody Allen joke/story (I know, I know) about how he hated the pigeons on his roof, so he sprayed the roof with pigeon-go-away, which turned out to be some kind of glue, so then he had to pry each pigeon's feet out of the glue..... Yuk. (Good thing I don't do standup, huh?) How about a REAL security camera, instead of a mock one? Wonder if that would be more of a deterrent.... @LTBF: Cool. I'd love to hear what you think if and when you read the book. Edited February 5, 2013 by LeafTalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBorn Posted February 5, 2013 Moderator Share Posted February 5, 2013 I'd spend a week at a habituator's property with my thermals if that's what it takes to get the proof. I'd sign the NDAs needed and help out where I could. I have no problem bringing someone out to our areas,if they are willing to come to Michigan. Can I show them things yes and does depend on the creatures themselves. I have done this before and usually they come out learning something about our furry friends. Thermalman if you are willing to come to Michigan PM me and we will see if we can set up a time and day on coming out for some proof on these guys in this area with a thermo. I 'll do it since i do not own a thremo and I know how vital and effective that thermo's can be in the field. Like i have said i have done this before and have no problem,you will not have sign no ndo or whatever those no nonesence agreements are.It all depends how far you are willing to go for the proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painthorse Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Lol, I clicked on the wrong thread but I read it anyway and glad I did. When I used to see the word "habituator" I would shudder, bad mojo stuff, crack pots, attention getters, crazy for coco pops kind of stuff until I actually started reading a very long thread and the light bulb flickered. I believe there is a fair amount of this activity actually happening. In order to understand I believe a person has to experience it in order to comprehend. You can't understand it if you don't experience it and in order to experience you have to live in an area where there these animals live. So the ones who don't believe "I must ask", where do you live? Not where you do your weekend research outings but where do you actually live, in a rural area, apartment, condo, housing development? Then the subject of ongoing activity, why no solid evidence, pics, video, etc? I can't speak for anyone but myself. Our activity has been spotty, when there's been a pattern we have pulled all nighters. I've had a handful of rocks thrown at me that I'll admit scared the hell out of me but at least I had the camcorder rolling when that happened. Most of the time it just "happens" when you don't expect squat. One good example was when my son and husband was working on the truck, I was carrying feed buckets and just as I had gotten to the stalls my perepheal vision caught movement then "bang" a large rock slammed into the side of the barn. I totally reamed out my husband and son for spooking the horses and me. Both were just then climbing out from under the truck to find out why mom "was having a frigging meltdown" and cussing them up one side and sown the other. While they both stood there professing their innocence another rock came from the same obvious direction and slammed into a glass porch door that was leaning against the coop and shattered it. Were we ready or expecting anything like that to happen? NO. That goes for the visual sightings also, you just don't expect it. Why? Because it doesn't happen all the time. Soo, as far as game cams go, one cam covers a tiny area. I have 4, I own 26 acres that connect to over a "million acres" of the Ouachita National forest. These cams have a relatively short distance for trigger, 40' at the most, direct line. 4 cams could not even cover 1/2 an acre no matter how strategically placed. So when the activity did go up a notch, I reached out to ask for help, even if it was loaner cams, a thermal, no help!---> So, I had asked for help when it was active to get proof and got squat. I have lost my patience in dealing with people who "wonder why there isn't this or that" to show proof when talking about habituation situations. I never looked at myself as a habituator because I had always considered it "baiting" and not "gifting" but it all boils down to the same thing. So anyone want to get a group effort going? I can't afford to buy enough cams for the coverage I need, but I can afford the batteries. Need loaner cams! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 One of the things that need to be understood is that sasquatch are not dumb animals. Human ego being what it is, however... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) So anyone want to get a group effort going? I can't afford to buy enough cams for the coverage I need, but I can afford the batteries. Need loaner cams! I do! But, my equipment pretty funky (sold my Reconyx 60....no good with even covert IR IMO)...my thermal clunky and no video, s however, $250 rents a good FLIR for a month! ..and maybe a Kick start collection for $500 would fly...small enough that $20 increments will get it there? I am interested in seeing the BFF or someone create a "capital equipment" pool..or rental center...see previous post (or not! actually think that is Sasquatchholm Syndrome) PM me, but I am near Chico, Ca....so far away....I did send you user name to William Barnes...lol... I know Falcon Project...but they have $$ and I think a good starlight ambient light camera...works in new moon with no light source, is the ticket...and a shed or something for power....and you! LOL b/c you have shown in your posts a long running attempt to understand.... And I hope that very long "thread" was the Habituating thread that brought the light bulb on? Good to hear, as we are getting beat up in the comment section of BFE lol.. otherwise I recommend you read up on "plotwatcher" and blind it in the shed? Edited February 5, 2013 by apehuman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 My neighbor bought and installed 6 exterior cameras that download 24 - 7 to the web. Day or night make no difference the video is clear. I believe he paid around $1500 for the equipment and wiring etc. Something like this might not work for you Paint since you have 26 acres but it would certainly cover Kings Canyons nuisance squatch on his roof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DWA Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) @ DWA What makes you favor the opinion of bigfoot believer scientists over the majority which do not? It seems that would be problematic. Wouldnt believers be more likely to mistake normal animal sign or hoaxes as evidence of bigfoot? I could point to the BCM tracks, or skookum cast as fine examples of that. I doubt you'll find any non bigfoot believer scientists claiming the BCM tracks were left by a sasquatch, or that the elk impression had anything to do with a mythical creature. First of all there are no "believer scientists." There very certainly are "disbeliever scientists." The difference? I have never noticed the latter using their science to evaluate the evidence. The former always do. Simple as that. Daris Swindler was a stolid non-believer scientist, converted to bigfoot proponent by the Skookum cast ALONE. Using one's science will do that for one. (Ain't an elk; simple. Where are the tracks where the elk would have to place its feet to stand up?) It is not about belief. It is about evidence. The latter don't understand that; in fact they don't understand what evidence is when it comes to this topic. The former? They do. I've noticed you tend to only value those scientists opinions which favor bigfoot as a real animal. What makes only those specific peoples opinions more valuable than the rest of the scientific world? Even Meldrum admits science requires a type specimen. I'm sure he has many excuses as to why none have been collected to date. (just as you will likely pine that "we havent looked") Time is running out on bigfoot claims. Pretty soon, we will have the technology to overcome any obstacles that could prevent such a discovery should bigfoot be a real animal. The claims are of a bipedal hairy ape like creature, not clothed, not with any special made tools, or technology in its possession. How could such a large purported animal escape collection in a country like the USA? Once again, you are piling assumption upon assumption and not evaluating evidence. Assumptions crumble when the evidence is not explained. Time isn't running out on nobody, except maybe sasquatch, which we may confirm by finding the bones of the last one. Even in the bushes of Africa, this is what happens when large primates encounter man. With so many encounter reports, habituation reports in so many areas, it mimics other myths in many respects. The purported range would also mimic this, and the population of humans. Perhaps a small percentage of humans like to play jokes, or pranks. That would seem to explain the phenomenon much better than their being a real live huge ape like beast evading collection in the forests of the USA. Um, habituators report the same things gorilla and chimp researchers do. There may be a whole lot of naivete in what they assume; they, after all, aren't scientists. And they may not even be telling the truth. Who knows? They either don't have or don't want to provide evidence, something that, by the way, they don't have to do if they don't want to. But they report the same process. The sasquatch evidence could be explained by at least 100 dedicated, 100% professional bigfoot hoaxers - all operating from a family-owned business open since European settlement - in each quadrant of the US and of Canada, but by nothing else. To think otherwise shows one's ignorance of the evidence. Edited February 5, 2013 by DWA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Where would you rent a FLIR? At somewhere like Cabella's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 (edited) @ DWA I'll stick with the "ignorant to the evidence" scientific side. The "it's out there" camp has continually failed, and will never bring in a specimen. If someone ever brings in an actual bigfoot, I'll be more than happy to concede there is a huge 600-1200 lb 7-10 foot tall ape running around North America yet to be discovered by man. However... No amount of text on a forum from a believer will make it real. Habituators have a lot of stories. And that's it. None have been able to back their claims/stories to date. I predict none ever will. Edited February 6, 2013 by LWD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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