Tree Manipulation/ Wood Structures: What Is The Evidence?

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

 

 

If there is torque, the vector potentially will follow the direction of the spiral.  Otherwise  the vector of a snow mass on a branch will be in the same direction of the gravitational pull.

 

 

 

*snipped*

If a person hangs onto a  tree limb to break it, is the applied force be more likely to be in a vertical direction (read: up and down) or in a twisting motion?

Are tree branches perfectly straight or no? If so than the answer would be, up and down. Where I come from branches have many shapes (YJFhf, to name a few), and hanging on crooked branches creates leverage and twists.

 

The shape of the branches don't effect gravitational pull and the directional vectors of that pull towards the earth. Unless the trees in your neighborhood defy the law of gravity and the laws of motion, which I doubt.

 

The branches do exert an equal and opposing force against whatever it is exerting a force against it. The shape of the branch may aid in providing an opposing force. But a hanging mass follows the law of gravity and will pull in the direction of gravity, unless the mass changes direction as I wrote in my last post.

 

BTW, I'm enjoying this discussion and the theories behind tree manipulation because I weave baskets for fun (and profit) and use a variety of materials for my baskets (reed, rattan, grape vines, honeysuckle vines, willow, wire, etc.) So I have practical experiences with manipulating plant material into shapes I want them to be.

I thought this was pretty straight forward but ok, try this experiment: lift your right arm until it's shoulder height and bend your elbow to a 90 degree angle, horizontal to the ground. Now push down on your right hand with your left. What kind of force do you feel on your right shoulder?

 

 

I thought this would be simple too because this isn't rocket science, it's basic Newtonian physics.

 

Per Newton's 2nd Law of Motion, the force your left hand exerts on your right hand is in the direction of that force. In your example, it's a downward or earthward force. Per Newton's 3rd Law of Motion, the force your right extremity (hand, forearm, arm) and shoulder exerts back to the force exerted from the left hand is in the opposite direction: upward from the earth.  If the left hand's force is greater than the opposing force, the motion will be in the direction the left hand is moving (Newton's 2nd Law of Motion) Therefore the direction you feel in your right shoulder is downward/earthward.

 

 

 

 

I joined to get experienced input as to common natural causes for breaks like this. Me simply saying that there are many natural causes that should be top of the list first was met with resistance here. So I sought out an expert forum for opinions.  Since my opinion counts for squat around here because I am unwilling to bigfoot at the top, or even on, the suspect list.

 

I think your perception that your opinion is "squat" is because the facts you present, while valid, are species specific and you're being called out for that.  (not a criticism, just an observation.)

 

Furthermore, I don't understand why you think being asked to discuss other causes of tree limb breaks in more depth is equal to being "met with resistance". I've had to look up stuff on trees that I haven't given any real thought to since my college Botany course: I can see how it will improve my basket weaving.

Edited November 5, 2015 by ChasingRabbits

[ShadowBorn]

One thing that might be causing these tree twists, might be strong wind swirls. I have often thought of this that this might be the cause when you do not find sign of these creatures .

 

It takes a large amount of power to do this to trees. I have seen some mighty strong wind power do some strange stuff to tree's so do not put it past wind power. 

[Guest]

If there is torque, the vector potentially will follow the direction of the spiral.  Otherwise  the vector of a snow mass on a branch will be in the same direction of the gravitational pull.

 

 

*snipped*

If a person hangs onto a  tree limb to break it, is the applied force be more likely to be in a vertical direction (read: up and down) or in a twisting motion?

Are tree branches perfectly straight or no? If so than the answer would be, up and down. Where I come from branches have many shapes (YJFhf, to name a few), and hanging on crooked branches creates leverage and twists.

 

The shape of the branches don't effect gravitational pull and the directional vectors of that pull towards the earth. Unless the trees in your neighborhood defy the law of gravity and the laws of motion, which I doubt.

 

The branches do exert an equal and opposing force against whatever it is exerting a force against it. The shape of the branch may aid in providing an opposing force. But a hanging mass follows the law of gravity and will pull in the direction of gravity, unless the mass changes direction as I wrote in my last post.

 

BTW, I'm enjoying this discussion and the theories behind tree manipulation because I weave baskets for fun (and profit) and use a variety of materials for my baskets (reed, rattan, grape vines, honeysuckle vines, willow, wire, etc.) So I have practical experiences with manipulating plant material into shapes I want them to be.

I thought this was pretty straight forward but ok, try this experiment: lift your right arm until it's shoulder height and bend your elbow to a 90 degree angle, horizontal to the ground. Now push down on your right hand with your left. What kind of force do you feel on your right shoulder?

 

I thought this would be simple too because this isn't rocket science, it's basic Newtonian physics.

 

Per Newton's 2nd Law of Motion, the force your left hand exerts on your right hand is in the direction of that force. In your example, it's a downward or earthward force. Per Newton's 3rd Law of Motion, the force your right extremity (hand, forearm, arm) and shoulder exerts back to the force exerted from the left hand is in the opposite direction: upward from the earth.  If the left hand's force is greater than the opposing force, the motion will be in the direction the left hand is moving (Newton's 2nd Law of Motion) Therefore the direction you feel in your right shoulder is downward/earthward.

Very sciencey sounding reply but you forgot one important variable, the 90 degree bend. The angle creates an additional circular direction to the up and down forces, hence the twist.

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

 

 

 

If there is torque, the vector potentially will follow the direction of the spiral.  Otherwise  the vector of a snow mass on a branch will be in the same direction of the gravitational pull.

 

 

 

*snipped*

If a person hangs onto a  tree limb to break it, is the applied force be more likely to be in a vertical direction (read: up and down) or in a twisting motion?

Are tree branches perfectly straight or no? If so than the answer would be, up and down. Where I come from branches have many shapes (YJFhf, to name a few), and hanging on crooked branches creates leverage and twists.

 

The shape of the branches don't effect gravitational pull and the directional vectors of that pull towards the earth. Unless the trees in your neighborhood defy the law of gravity and the laws of motion, which I doubt.

 

The branches do exert an equal and opposing force against whatever it is exerting a force against it. The shape of the branch may aid in providing an opposing force. But a hanging mass follows the law of gravity and will pull in the direction of gravity, unless the mass changes direction as I wrote in my last post.

 

BTW, I'm enjoying this discussion and the theories behind tree manipulation because I weave baskets for fun (and profit) and use a variety of materials for my baskets (reed, rattan, grape vines, honeysuckle vines, willow, wire, etc.) So I have practical experiences with manipulating plant material into shapes I want them to be.

I thought this was pretty straight forward but ok, try this experiment: lift your right arm until it's shoulder height and bend your elbow to a 90 degree angle, horizontal to the ground. Now push down on your right hand with your left. What kind of force do you feel on your right shoulder?

 

I thought this would be simple too because this isn't rocket science, it's basic Newtonian physics.

 

Per Newton's 2nd Law of Motion, the force your left hand exerts on your right hand is in the direction of that force. In your example, it's a downward or earthward force. Per Newton's 3rd Law of Motion, the force your right extremity (hand, forearm, arm) and shoulder exerts back to the force exerted from the left hand is in the opposite direction: upward from the earth.  If the left hand's force is greater than the opposing force, the motion will be in the direction the left hand is moving (Newton's 2nd Law of Motion) Therefore the direction you feel in your right shoulder is downward/earthward.

Very sciencey sounding reply but you forgot one important variable, the 90 degree bend. The angle creates an additional circular direction to the up and down forces, hence the twist.

 

 

 

In your example of "lift your right arm until it's shoulder height and bend your elbow to a 90 degree angle, horizontal to the ground. Now push down on your right hand with your left."  the elbow does not act as a fulcrum or axis because the left hand exerts a downward force ("push down"). Ergo, the force vector is a direct line descending from the left hand  to the right hand through the right forearm to the right elbow joint. No torque, hence, no rotation.

 

Had your example been "lift your right arm until it's shoulder height and bend your elbow to a 90 degree angle, horizontal to the ground. Now grasp your right hand with your left hand an pull it down as you would a slot machine lever" then I would agree with you that torque has been applied, which would result in the shoulder joint rotating.  But that wasn't your example.

Edited November 5, 2015 by ChasingRabbits

[Guest]

^ pulling it down and pushing it down are the same thing, my experiment was worded just fine and clearly proves my point. I'm guessing you already know that though, and are just trying to avoid admitting that I am right.

[Branco]

Maybe someone could send some pictures of possible BF tree breaksto the botanist forum for their opinions on actual samples.  Seems just asking what could cause twisting breaks is rather broad. 

 

The cut limb with the beetle larva in it shows no scale so how do we not know it is just a 1/4 branch?

During the earlier discussion, I measured and estimated the diameter of the cut end of the limb still attached to the tree by using the distance from the ground to the limb that was noted in the photo in the report as a reference. I noted that in a post and stated the cut end was "about 2 inches in diameter". During a phone call with the witness he said that limb was about 1.5 inches in diameter. (He was holding it in his hand as we spoke.)

 

As I said before, there is no "beetle larva" visible in that photo. (Nor in any of the other hundreds of Sassafras trees, or their roots, that I have harvested for several purposes for many years.

[WSA]

I suppose at 6'1", 200 lbs I could horse a limb that thick, but I'd have to have it on the ground, and if it were on the tree, I would likely tear it from the tree in the process. Remember too, this is green wood, limber and not prone to snapping. Sassafras is a supple tree, not unlike willow or alder.

[1980squatch]

Anybody else love to chew on the emerging sassafras leaves when in the field?

[Guest]

Hello everyone. I am glad to finally be here to answer any questions you may have on this report http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=21240  .

 

Since I am new, I can only make a few posts a day, and they will need to be approved before they are seen until I get 25 posts. So please bear with me and I will answer any questions you have.

 

First, let me say that I have no idea what it was that did this. I checked with the weather, to see what the conditions were that night and they were clear and calm. It happened between midnight and 7:30 am on a Monday morning. At that time, the only kids that lived in my area were under the age of 10 (as far as boys go). It was not my lawn mower, I was using a Craftsman 100 at the time. So there was no roll bar or any attachment sticking out or up.

 

I did try to twist a similar sized limb, both close in and on the end and was not able to recreate the twist. 

 

There was not insect in the twist, the brown spot in the photo was not part of the twisted limb.

 

I have to say that I don't know what did this.  When I was standing outside that night and could smell something and the neighbors dogs we barking, that was the reason I contacted the BFRO with this.

 

Now with all of that being said, I am open to any and all questions and will answer to the best of my ability.

 

Thank you all and it is nice to be in here.

[Guest]

Hello Pistola,

Welcome to the forum.

I have a few questions, I'm wondering what the rest of the branch looked like? Do you have any pictures?

Where are the roads coming from and going to? Also is there a foot path or sidewalk beside them?

Thanks for your time.

[Rockape]

There was not insect in the twist, the brown spot in the photo was not part of the twisted limb.

Then what is it?

 

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

^ pulling it down and pushing it down are the same thing, my experiment was worded just fine and clearly proves my point. I'm guessing you already know that though, and are just trying to avoid admitting that I am right.

 

Pulling is a different motion than pushing because the force vectors are in different directions. But you know that too, and are just trying to save face.

 

Moreover, comparing the motion of human arm to a tree limb is bad comparison. Trees and their limbs do not have ball-and-socket joints nor hinge joints. These types of joints allow for movement.

 

but this discussion on Newton's laws of motion is good because it dispels the non-science based notions and feelings that something like snow sitting on a tree branch causes tree branches to fracture in a spiral pattern.

Edited November 6, 2015 by ChasingRabbits

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

 

Hello everyone. I am glad to finally be here to answer any questions you may have on this report http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=21240  .

 

Since I am new, I can only make a few posts a day, and they will need to be approved before they are seen until I get 25 posts. So please bear with me and I will answer any questions you have.

 

First, let me say that I have no idea what it was that did this. I checked with the weather, to see what the conditions were that night and they were clear and calm. It happened between midnight and 7:30 am on a Monday morning. At that time, the only kids that lived in my area were under the age of 10 (as far as boys go). It was not my lawn mower, I was using a Craftsman 100 at the time. So there was no roll bar or any attachment sticking out or up.

 

I did try to twist a similar sized limb, both close in and on the end and was not able to recreate the twist. 

 

There was not insect in the twist, the brown spot in the photo was not part of the twisted limb.

 

I have to say that I don't know what did this.  When I was standing outside that night and could smell something and the neighbors dogs we barking, that was the reason I contacted the BFRO with this.

 

Now with all of that being said, I am open to any and all questions and will answer to the best of my ability.

 

Thank you all and it is nice to be in here.

 

Hi and welcome.

 

What kind of tree was it because that will be of use when dmaker queries  the people on the botanical website about it?

 

What is the diameter of the limb? (for my curiosity's sake) 

Edited November 6, 2015 by ChasingRabbits

[WSA]

Hi C. Rabbits...Branco reported it was a Sassafras, limb was 1.5 inches.

 

Welcome Pistola. I can't vouch for what others may think, but for my money, I attach a ton of credence to the account of the person who was there.  You obviously noticed some things, as people tend to notice around their home place when they are out of place.  That you feel it justified all the time and effort to bring it to light and field questions about it does tell me something about the impression it made on you. I know you know it is extremely unlikely that any definitive conclusions can be made. All we might be able to do is come up with some half-arsed probabilities of causes. In the end, some will consider the probability  it was something non human, with hands, and some will not. All that I ask of the posters, if I can be permitted, is for everyone to treat this Forum member with some routine courtesy out of our respect for him to come here and share his experiences. 

Anybody else love to chew on the emerging sassafras leaves when in the field?

Absolutely. It was one of the first trees I was ever able to identify as a kid...the one with "three different leaves."  Some while ago it was widely reported that Sassafras has carcinogenic properties. Who knows? I wouldn't make Sass tea and drink it every day, but every once in a while, sure.

[Guest DWA]

^^^^...and this is the point that my disgust with "I wasn't there, so let me tell you what happened" really starts to build.