Impossible Animals Do Exist, So Why Not Bigfoot?

[Guest ZeTomes]

That is a freaky lookin' monkey.

this snub-nosed species (Myanmar snub-nosed monkey) was discovered very recently (2010, I think) and is a highly endangered species.

"The monkeys' characteristics differ from other known snub-nosed species. They have black fur, prominent lips and wide upturned nostrils which fill with water when it rains, causing the monkeys to sneeze.

Fauna and Flora International estimates that there are fewer than 300 of these monkeys in the wild.

As such, they are globally classified as critically endangered by the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN) criteria for the level of threat of extinction."

See the BBC news complete article.

Edited July 18, 2011 by ZeTomes

[Guest ZeTomes]

THE MISTERY SOUNDS OF THE DEEP: DR. CYCLOPS TERRIBLE EXPERIMENTS

"Strange sounds came from the depths of the Antarctic Sea making people wondering if Dr. Cyclops was behind this. Making terrible experiments at his secret base on the frozen waters of the north oceans, it is thought Dr. Cyclops is creating a terrible race of menacing mutants for conquering the entire world..! Fisherman are afraid to get into waters thinking the sirens would be there enchanting them with her hypnotic voices.... Biologists say it could be a mammal vocalization, for reproduction purposes..."

Yeah, Yeah, and their voices look like electronic synthesizers from 50s... no, no, no, let me guess, seals do it!... pff what a load of...! Obviously it's a track from Pink Floyd's "The Dark Side of the Moon", any kid with some 70s music background would notice that!

(Werner Herzog's Encounters at the End of the World)

Edited July 18, 2011 by ZeTomes

[Guest Lesmore]

Excellent description! you gave me, I cannot avoid recalling Sydney Pollack's "Jeremiah Johnson" . I have this old attraction to Canada, and I think it's the result of my imagination of untouched and wild areas and having a marvelous wood indian Haida carving of a beaver. That magic attracted since I was a child. I would like to know more about this art and myth. Do you have any good advice for good books concerning Haida culture and myth (it's Haida isn't it?)?I don't know much about Aboriginal culture. The Haida are a BC (British Coumbia) first nations and although I've been to BC a few times and seen some of their work, I don't know much about them. They are renowned for their sea going craft (carved out of a large tree, I believe) and their totem poles. Some of the carved faces on their Totems are thought to represent BF.

There are many different First Nations across Canada and although they are all aboriginal in background, many of their cultures are quite different from others. I think the aesthetics are astonishing. Also, Canada is a very interesting paradigm to viking previous navigations. Several archaeological viking artifacts were discovered at camping sites. Yes Viking settlements have been found in Canada that pre date Columbus. I have read that Portuguese and Spanish fishermen fished the Grand Banks off of Newfoundland, before Columbus. The US area around Minnesota, the Dakotas, also the Turtle Mountain area in the Dakotas and Mb.... have some interesting items...the Rune stones, other artifacts of seeming early Viking exploration, before Columbus .Not to mention Canada was the beginning point for a hypothetical viking exploration, including west south American coasts and even Easter Island. How Canada is receiving immigration at this moment? Immigration to Canada is always sought after and I think the numbers are fairly robust.

I live in the limits of Lisbon, near Belém, where monastery of Jerónimos and Tower of Belém are situated. They both were of very importance to portuguese maritime discoveries at the golden discovery portuguese ages. I imagine the religious environment amidst the departures of the mighty caravels, sailing throughout Africas, Indias and Brazil facing the seas of the Adamastor and getting thorough the mythical pillars of Hercules.

Lisbon is a very rich city in terms of history and archeology. It was a very important navigation port for trading with many cultures and for maritime expansion. A lot of civilizations from pre-history through modern ages considered Lisbon vital for strategic reasons. The britans, celts, greeks, scandinavian, romans, finish, all of them came across this city next to river Tejo and all of them had their trading posts there. The mythical greek culture influenced deeply our poets and writers, we became the people of poetry.

- *Excuse me, I'm Lusitanian (portuguese)

- So?

- Well, I don't know how to sing but I could recite something if you'd like.

(Astérix: Le Domaine des dieux)

Haida culture carvings

Portugal had a significant impact on early exploration and settlement in different areas. Vasco De Gama (sp. ?) always comes to mind.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Lesmore

[Guest ZeTomes]

Portugal had a significant impact on early exploration and settlement in different areas. Vasco De Gama (sp. ?) always comes to mind.

Vasco da Gama was also portuguese, one of the most famous at maritime discovery times. He was a bold rude man, the first reaching Indias establishing as a governor the first maritime spice routes from Europe to Indias. Portugal's purpose was to avoid the several stages the price of spices had to inflate, while being negotiated by Moors. It was less expensive to invest in maritime routes reaching the source, than buying them from intermediates. Europe started to buy them directly from Portugal, and the economical flow was partially subsidizing the explorations.

Portugal became independent from Spain at 1139 by Afonso Henriques proclaiming himself as a king.

The Haida's representation of Sasquatch interests me deeply, that's the literature I'm trying to find. I read that there's also a local tradition like a initiation ritual, that displaces young members of the community to the wild forest, so that they start to learn the secrets of survival. This subject interests me great. To find those first european contacts registered on exploration diary logs. At least some of them might be of that wild displaced men initiating themselves in the skills of shamanic arts.

So, there's no chance I could immigrate to the Newfoundland?

Edited July 18, 2011 by ZeTomes

[Guest ZeTomes]

If you happen to know myths concerning the species posted here, please shared them. I would happily appreciate it. Thank you

[Guest LAL]

I can't think of any books off the top of my head, but here's a list of ten beasts that used to be mythical:

http://listverse.com...to-be-mythical/

You might enjoy Kathy Strain's book.

Giants, Cannibals & Monsters: Bigfoot in Native Culture [Paperback]

Edited July 20, 2011 by LAL

[Guest ZeTomes]

Lovely LAL, lovely! You're a sweet, here's a big kiss!

[Guest Lesmore]

Vasco da Gama was also portuguese, one of the most famous at maritime discovery times. He was a bold rude man, the first reaching Indias establishing as a governor the first maritime spice routes from Europe to Indias. Portugal's purpose was to avoid the several stages the price of spices had to inflate, while being negotiated by Moors. It was less expensive to invest in maritime routes reaching the source, than buying them from intermediates. Europe started to buy them directly from Portugal, and the economical flow was partially subsidizing the explorations.

Portugal became independent from Spain at 1139 by Afonso Henriques proclaiming himself as a king.Portugal has a long and interesting history. Thank you for reviewing some of it.

The Haida's representation of Sasquatch interests me deeply, that's the literature I'm trying to find. I read that there's also a local tradition like a initiation ritual, that displaces young members of the community to the wild forest, so that they start to learn the secrets of survival. This subject interests me great.There was a TV documentary this year about BF and an First Nations elder from the west coast (BC) spoke about his culture. He indicated that some of the medicine men, when they are starting off in this role, will sometimes go and live in the wild, on their own...for quite an extended time....a year or more. During that solitary time they let their hair grow long, etc. I don't know if this is a Haida culture or other First nations culture. There are many different First Nations. To find those first european contacts registered on exploration diary logs. At least some of them might be of that wild displaced men initiating themselves in the skills of shamanic arts.This is what the First Nations guy was referring to as happening in BC.

So, there's no chance I could immigrate to the Newfoundland?

I don't know. You should contact the Canadian Embassy or Consulate in Lisbon and see what the procedure would be regarding immigration to Canada.

[Guest Dudlow]

The stark beauty of even the simplest of creatures beggars the imagination. Great thread!

- Dudlow

[Guest ZeTomes]

Thank you very much Dudlow, don't hesitate to share yours "Impossible creature"!

Edited July 20, 2011 by ZeTomes

[Guest ZeTomes]

AND NOW... SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! (wandjina - part 1)

(concerning myths)

There are these fantastic entities called Wandjinas in traditional aboriginal australian culture. They are often represented in cave or rock paintings, and they are of most importance to sociological aboriginal equilibrium. Sir George Grey reported and illustrate them at his journals while leading an expedition to explore western Australia. The rest is controversial but very interesting. Take a look:

SIR GEORGE GREY:

Born in Portugal eight days after the death of his father in the Peninsula wars, Sir George Grey was a great traveller. He began his colonial career leading an exploring expedition to Western Australia, before becoming Governor of South Australia in 1840.

As well as his two terms of office in New Zealand, he was Governor of the Cape Colonies in South Africa, travelling back to Britain in between terms. He had a keen interest in exploration and corresponded with a number of famous explorers of the day.

(read more about George Grey... )

JOURNALS OF TWO EXPEDITIONS

OF DISCOVERY IN NORTH-WEST AND WESTERN AUSTRALIA, DURING THE YEARS 1837, 1838, AND 1839... (vol I, vol II)

Journals of Two Expeditions

Every ufo believer probably is very inclined to the association between the wandjina cave paintings and ancient extraterrestrial theory. What probably many ufo believers don't know is that those wandjina cave paintings were first registered (of my knowledge) by Sir George Grey at his Australian exploration journals while leader of an expedition to Western Australia. Many antagonists probably don't know that those journals are indeed real and that they indeed have illustrated wandjina cave paintings representations, and that wandjina aboriginal australian cave paintings do really exist and that they are indeed very similar to Grey's illustrations. I edited the chapter that illustrates the wandjina cave paintings (read here: Journals of Two Expeditions, Vol 1, chapter 09).

About the E.t. association, for me as simply as a cool, satirical, faun, ironic, comedian, ecological, iron head stubborn, ideological, and perfectly normal skeptical, the question itself might be much more interesting in terms of historical purposes than what firstly catches the eye. Those paintings are indeed exceptional and their aesthetics differ from common australian cave paintings, even general cave paintings aesthetics: they do indeed represent exceptional beings in australian aboriginal culture. Like in surrealism, there's a specific world in dreams, a raw language inherent to the subconscious yet still encoded.

The Wandjina spirits are like guides of that world in aboriginal australian dreams. These entities are so important in australian aboriginal culture, that they were repainted by generations for an unknown number of years and they are only allowed to be painted by specific elders authorizations. As far as their antiquity, they are at least older than european australian maritime discovery and they could be as antique as 65 000 years old when our ancestors crossed by boat in groups from Timor into Australia.

As far as I know, after George Grey's journals documentation, Bradshaw Foundation's Drs. Andreas and Katharina were the firsts to extensively document Wandjina paintings (original - incomplete ). But what reality lies in wandjina representations as why their aesthetics are so idiosyncratic compared to general rock paintings and their concept so important to aboriginal culture, so much that it's still present and active in nowadays aboriginal culture? I don't think this to be a fantastic invented creature exclusive product of imagination nor a cryptic, I'm more inclined to be the impact of an advanced civilization - the contrast of both cultures encountering. A shock of cultures must have took place. Perhaps an advanced civilization sailed to Australias, most probably they were considered gods for their advanced navigation skills and culture. But which civilization could be molding into this speculation? Are there any archaeological clues? I don't know, but I already contacted the Australian Archaeological Foundation - this is totally an open question and doesn't mean at all that ets did it (lets Erik von Deniken take care of that business), I think it's much more plausible to say some masters of the sea civilization did it, modern or ancient.

(to be continued...)

Edited July 20, 2011 by ZeTomes

[Guest rockinkt]

I can't think of any books off the top of my head, but here's a list of ten beasts that used to be mythical:

http://listverse.com...to-be-mythical/

You might enjoy Kathy Strain's book.

Giants, Cannibals & Monsters: Bigfoot in Native Culture [Paperback]

The so-called list of "ten beasts that used to be mythical" is absurd. The errors are many and the idea that animals that were shipped to Rome during the Roman Empire could be called mythical is just outright bizarre.

.............................

Ze Tomes... Read Kathy Strain's book. She is an anthropologist and a member of this forum. We do not agree on numerous things - but I do not doubt her intelligence and academic integrity.

I will send you some links if you like (after you read her book) which I think offer some credible argument to some of Strain's conclusions.

If you wish to challenge her conclusions be prepared for a very interesting debate if she is willing/able to respond.

[Guest ZeTomes]

The so-called list of "ten beasts that used to be mythical" is absurd. The errors are many and the idea that animals that were shipped to Rome during the Roman Empire could be called mythical is just outright bizarre.

.............................

Ze Tomes... Read Kathy Strain's book. She is an anthropologist and a member of this forum. We do not agree on numerous things - but I do not doubt her intelligence and academic integrity.

I will send you some links if you like (after you read her book) which I think offer some credible argument to some of Strain's conclusions.

If you wish to challenge her conclusions be prepared for a very interesting debate if she is willing/able to respond.

I'm not acquainted with the list you mentioned Rockinkt... explain me more about that sentence

I will read it for sure, but unfortunately I don't have credit card, nor the book is sold in Portugal, i think... (have to check first)

For the moment I'm only able to register the names for future readings

Thanks for the suggestion and for your disposal for future links.

[Guest ZeTomes]

AND NOW... SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! (wandjina - part 2)

(concerning myths)

So, what are wandjinas?

"The most widely known Aboriginal story from the Kimberley refers to a mythical being. In this legend, Wandjina collaborated to fight against human Aboriginal groups and, in the process, kill many of them. The story is one of cause and effect and is told here in an abridged version. Two children were playing with the bird, Tumbi, who they thought was a honeysucker. However, it was really an owl. They did not see the difference in the eyes and thought the bird was unimportant. The children maimed and blinded the bird. They mocked him by throwing him into the air and telling him to fly, but he could not and fell back to earth. Tumbi was not just an ordinary bird, he was the owl, the son of a Wandjina. This is why he was able to disappear and go up to Inanunga, the Wandjina in the sky, to complain. The news flew to all the Wandjina who determined to punish the people. A Wandjina named Wodjin called all the Wandjina from throughout the country together, and the owl who had been maimed incited them to revenge. However, they did not know where to find the people, and the lizards and animals which they sent to scout around for them refused to tell where the people were. The animals were sorry for the people, and tried to hide them, knowing that the Wandjina would kill them in revenge for the bad deeds. But the Wandjina saw the people on a wide flat near the spring at Tunbai. They moved to the top of one of the hills which surround this flat and Wodjin, by stroking his beard, was able to bring heavy rain and floods. The Wandjina divided into two parties and attacked in a pincer movement from the top of the hill. Meanwhile, the Brolgas (birds) had been dancing on the wet ground and had turned it into a bog. The Wandjina drove the people into the boggy water, where they drowned. The people tried to fight back, but they were unable to harm the Wandjina. The boys who had injured the bird were very frightened by the fight, the rain and lightning, and escaped to a large boab tree with a split in it, where they decided to hide. But the tree was really a Wandjina and no sooner were the boys inside than it closed on them and crushed them. The Wandjina, having achieved their aim and revenged the injuries done to the owl, were now able to disperse around the country.." (read article )

Indeed it's too much ambiguous to analyze properly which paintings correspond to the original wandjinas as they are and were repainted constantly from generation to generation bringing new aspects to its aesthetics from exterior cultural influences and imbued creativity, therefore making a reliable visual comparison with any correspondence or to date them properly is an extreme complex. Adding more ambiguity, approximately by 70s, there was a boom of ufologists alleging wandjinas were a direct proof of alien ancestry, particularly catapulted by Erich von Daniken's The Chariot of Gods. The paintings genuineness could start to become at that moment a fusion of influences either from thirsty ufologists travelers and aboriginal influences from result of that contacts. t was epidemic and much of scientific attention towards the paintings started to become very skeptical. Nonetheless, previously both Sir Grey and the Bradhsaw Foundation had documented them, and most particularly, Australian aboriginal culture had been documented them either one way or the other in tradition and culture since there was established official European contact with Australias. Wandjina's importance keeps its strongly position on aboriginal culture as a timeless mark. Since when, now that's a good unanswered question.

On a discussion with an historian's geek friend of mine towards Wandjina mystery, we hypothesized African hairstyle influences, Egyptian tunics, the aura resemblance with European Christian religion, woman hairstyles, night spirits, owls, Indians, Aztecs, what my friend immediately noticed was that wandjinas heads resembled helmets focusing himself on their eye sockets. We assumed by that hypothesis that wandjinas were men wearing armors and helmets, we both agree that wandjinas symbolizing a higher developed civilization encounter wasn't totally crazy. We agreed at that point, we just didn't know when or how that situation had take place.

He immediately recalled Viking helmets eye sockets resembling wandjina's eyelashes or eyebrows. Viking helmets were meant to be psychological fearsome and they did have that peculiarity at their eye sockets which resembled eyelashes, perhaps symbolizing the spirits of the night which are often associated with death. Many helmets have similar eye sockets and everyone of them is supposed to be fearsome. I was more inclined to contemporaries or ancestors of Mediterranean cultures, like Minoans, Greeks, Spartans or Phoenicians, because of the hair crest attached to the helmet similar to wandjina "auras" and specially because Antikythera mechanism show that little is known about the Hellenistic Period and much was known about astronomy and navigation by mediterranean cultures. At least they had to be great sailors or a error of navigation like Colombus did also took place.

Amidst our interrogation about several potential civilizations and several punching rounds, our best shots were to both Scandinavian and Mediterranean people as generic terms of close like civilizations. Both created historical maritime epistemological ruptures. The interrogation endures and the response from Australian Archaeological Association is waited with great enthusiasm. I did read somewhere this theory wasn't new, I simply forgot where did I save that fie, anyway it's speculative and no evidence exists in my knowledge except the wandjina paintings themselves.

"Sigurd's Helmet". Vendel Boat Grave, 7th C. / royalty spartan helmet / viking helmet

But what really, really bothers me is this George Grey's Journal of Expedition illustration of an wandjina entity found hidden inside a large cave:

17. Figure drawn on roof of Cave, discovered March 29th.

"The principal painting in it was the figure of a man, ten feet six inches in length, clothed from the chin downwards in a red garment which reached to the wrists and ankles; beyond this red dress the feet and hands protruded and were badly executed. The face and head of the figure were enveloped in a succession of circular bandages or rollers, or what appeared to be painted to represent such. These were coloured red, yellow, and white; and the eyes were the only features represented on the face. Upon the highest bandage or roller a series of lines were painted in red, but, although so regularly done as to indicate that they have some meaning, it was impossible to tell whether they were intended to depict written characters or some ornament for the head. This figure was so drawn on the roof that its feet were just in front of the natural seat, whilst its head and face looked directly down on anyone who stood in the entrance of the cave, but it was totally invisible from the outside. The painting was more injured by the damp and atmosphere, and had the appearance of being much more defaced and ancient, than any of the others which we had seen.* (*Footnote. This figure brings to mind the description of the Prophet Ezekiel: Men portrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans portrayed in vermilion, girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity. Chapter 23:14, 15.)". You can see it at George Grey's Journals of Two Expeditions, vol I, chapter 9 )

Indeed one is inclined to give plausibility to the extraterrestrial hypothesis... but, things aren't always as they seem, or more correctly saying, things sometimes are seen as one wants them to be seen... or not. The concept of an extraterrestrial hypothesis is not new and it has been defended in 1800s by scientific community. Biblical archeology started to emerge and Egypt was a jewel for scholars. Literature and philosophy concerning this new thought were fashionable and they represented liberal and modern science and thinking.

The George Grey illustration could be a mixture of the painting itself with the general projections mentioned above, like William Whewell who saw lines in Mars projecting subconsciously with pareidolia suggestion, active extraterrestrial channels synonyms of an advanced civilization. By this logic, George Grey himself and his illustrator could have been fusing biblical and the new wave philosophy with what they were seeing resulting I a mixture of realism and interpretation. I prefer the maritime civilization contact eccentric hypothesis though. Additional information is well accepted.

Enlightenment and Cosmic Pluralism

"During the Scientific Revolution and the later Enlightenment, cosmic pluralism became a mainstream possibility. Bernard le Bovier de Fontenelle's Entretiens sur la pluralité des mondes (Conversations on the Plurality of Worlds) of 1686 was an important work from this period, speculating on pluralism and describing the new Copernican cosmology. Pluralism was also championed by philosophers such as John Locke, astronomers such as William Herschel and even politicians, including John Adams and Benjamin Franklin. As greater scientific skepticism and rigour were applied to the question it ceased to be simply a matter of philosophy and theology and was properly bounded by astronomy and biology.

The French astronomer Camille Flammarion was one of the chief proponents of cosmic pluralism during the latter half of the nineteenth century. His first book, La pluralité des mondes habités (1862) was a great popular success, going through 33 editions in its first twenty years. Flammarion was one of the first people to put forward the idea that extraterrestrial beings were genuinely alien, and not simply variations of earthly creatures."

19th Century

Martian canals depicted by Percival Lowell

"In 1854, William Whewell, a fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge, who popularized the word scientist, theorized that Mars had seas, land and possibly life forms. Speculation about life on Mars exploded in the late 19th century, following telescopic observation by some observers of apparent Martian canals — which were however soon found to be optical illusions. Despite this, in 1895, American astronomer Percival Lowell published his book Mars, followed by Mars and its Canals in 1906, proposing that the canals were the work of a long-gone civilization.This idea led British writer H. G. Wells to write The War of the Worlds in 1897, telling of an invasion by aliens from Mars who were fleeing the planet’s desiccation.

Spectroscopic analysis of Mars' atmosphere began in earnest in 1894, when U.S. astronomer William Wallace Campbell showed that neither water nor oxygen were present in the Martian atmosphere. By 1909 better telescopes and the best perihelic opposition of Mars since 1877 conclusively put an end to the canal theory.

The science fiction genre, although not so named during the time, develops during the late 19th century. Jules Verne's Around the Moon (1870) features a discussion of the possibility of life on the Moon, but with the conclusion that it is barren. Stories involving extraterrestrials are found in e.g. Garrett P. Serviss's Edison's Conquest of Mars (1897). The War of the Worlds by H. G. Wells was published in 1898 and stands at the beginning of the popular idea of the "Martian invasion" of Earth prominent in 20th century pop culture."

sources:

• wikipedia
• project gutenberg
• Bradshaw Foundation
• Australia for Everyone
• Australian Archaelogical Association
• Kimberley Foundation Australia
• Google Books (vol I / vol II)

Edited July 20, 2011 by ZeTomes

[BobZenor]

The so-called list of "ten beasts that used to be mythical" is absurd. The errors are many and the idea that animals that were shipped to Rome during the Roman Empire could be called mythical is just outright bizarre.

.............................

Ze Tomes... Read Kathy Strain's book. She is an anthropologist and a member of this forum. We do not agree on numerous things - but I do not doubt her intelligence and academic integrity.

I will send you some links if you like (after you read her book) which I think offer some credible argument to some of Strain's conclusions.

If you wish to challenge her conclusions be prepared for a very interesting debate if she is willing/able to respond.

I am asking in complete ignorance here. I doubt your opinion of Bigfoot is right but I certainly respect your opinion. You seem to have some negative mojo that goes beyond what could be rationally expected as far as a giant cryptic hominid goes. I don't know where that comes from. It isn't like I don't completely understand that attitude as far as that goes and I would probably share it if not for personal experience but I am very curious what are the other mythical cryptids. Just give a couple of the cryptids if you don't mind. It certainly seems to be germane to this thread.

Edited July 21, 2011 by BobZenor