Cotter Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Drew- what makes you think these animals stayed in the area during the eradication of the native denizens? Are they incapable of migration or nomadic tendencies? Thx.
Drew Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Drew- what makes you think these animals stayed in the area during the eradication of the native denizens? Are they incapable of migration or nomadic tendencies? Thx. How does someone eradicate all the animals in an area, and all the trees, and not kill just one of the apes? Oh, wait, they were smart enough to see the loggers coming, and get out of dodge, they went to the next county over, and , oh! they are logging that county too, and eating all the animals. Maybe the next county, or the next one. Where do you think giant hairy apes would go in a landscape that is ravaged by human encroachment? Maybe they went to one of the last habitable forest in Eastern Oklahoma. The same forest where every hunter in the area would go to find dinner, because the rest of the landscape was completely decimated by logging and subsistance hunting.
Guest DWA Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) Drew: I think we should label something else "Operation Persistence." Myomyomy. You do make an excellent point. As everyone knows, deer and bear were hunted out of existence in Shenandoah National Park, and the whole place skinned for lumber. So that's all gone now. Oh wait. Edited March 18, 2013 by DWA
Guest Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) Yes yes of course. So which are true? What possible method could anyone use to determin what to "believe" and what is, actually, real? Well, the ones that leave footprints, scat, hair and blood. I've never seen a ghost leave those, or a leprechaun, or a unicorn. Not to mention video, audio and sightings over hundreds of years by thousands of people. So, that really does narrow it down a bit. Could a person who didn't want to be found, who was completely at home in the woods, and had everything they needed to survive, avoid detection if they wanted to? Edited March 18, 2013 by madison5716
Guest DWA Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 ^^^THIS IS NOT ABOUT BELIEF. IT IS ABOUT EVIDENCE. How does one suss out the fakes? FOLLOW THE ONES THAT SHOW NO SIGNS OF FAKERY. It's called "zoology" last time I checked.
Guest DWA Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Could a person who didn't want to be found, who was completely at home in the woods, and had everything they needed to survive, avoid detection if they wanted to? Actually, probably not. But that is given a host of variables that do not apply in this case. The person would likely be sought: by loved ones; creditors; the law; park rangers; etc. They'd have a description to go on of the subject. They'd likely have DNA samples. Then you are talking about an ape that when you say you saw one, well, no you didn't. It is impossible for an animal like sasquatch to go undetected on this continent, Impossible. The sightings and footprints are your proof.
Drew Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Which of these footprints are proof of Bigfoot's existence? http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/610Gj4Ub-RL.jpg
Guest Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Drew, we've been around and around on this, you and I. Your responses and questions demonstrate a near total ignorance in how *any* large animal research is done or what its typical outcomes are. You don't know what the forest is like. You don't know about how animals move around as populations or, apparently, individuals. And I don't have the patience or the time to educate you in the simple foundational elements necessary to carry on a debate about this. It appears as though our conversations have reached their productive end. Consider this my parting remark to you. Josh Gates was at our just concluded conference. He related a story of a woman he met in his travels who had been studying and researching the habits of Sumatran tigers and elephants. For twenty years she has been in the bush doing the yeoman's work of basic field studies. In all that time - two decades - she has seen with her own eyes one elephant. One. They have a bare handful of camera trap images of the tigers. Over twenty years. Unfortunately, I can't recall the name of this woman (though I'm going to reach out to Josh and get it from him). When I do, I'll be sure to pass it along so you can contact her and tell her what she's been doing wrong.
Guest Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) In all that time - two decades - she has seen with her own eyes one elephant. I know what you are getting at bipto, but just wanted to say .... nice work if you can get it, lol, dang I need a job like that where you don't produce anything for 20 years but get paid. Must be nice! As it is, I'm running my feet off literally. Edited March 18, 2013 by madison5716
Cotter Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 How does someone eradicate all the animals in an area, and all the trees, and not kill just one of the apes? Oh, wait, they were smart enough to see the loggers coming, and get out of dodge, they went to the next county over, and , oh! they are logging that county too, and eating all the animals. Maybe the next county, or the next one. Where do you think giant hairy apes would go in a landscape that is ravaged by human encroachment? Maybe they went to one of the last habitable forest in Eastern Oklahoma. The same forest where every hunter in the area would go to find dinner, because the rest of the landscape was completely decimated by logging and subsistance hunting. Couple things. #1) When logging happens, and areas are decimated, is the landscape completely barren, or do they leave brush piles, tree tops, and the like behind. #2) You've offered a possible explanation, they moved to the other area, that was being logged, then moved to another area, that was being logged, then moved to another area....etc etc...until they found suitable habitat, that's what animals (including primates) do. #3) How are we SURE one was not shot? There are lots of accounts. Sure, one wasn't brought in for Science to examine, but if your first priority was feeding your family, would you take the time, energy, and resources to 'prove' to the world a primate species exists? There are lots of explanations.....and yes...including they do not exist.
AtlantiS Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Wow.... If you only see 1 elephant in 20 years..your research in the wrong bush ........ lol For twenty years she has been in the bush doing the yeoman's work of basic field studies. In all that time - two decades - she has seen with her own eyes one elephant. One.
Martin Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 .................... Could a person who didn't want to be found, who was completely at home in the woods, and had everything they needed to survive, avoid detection if they wanted to? Yes ShÅichi Yokoi (横井 庄一 Yokoi ShÅichi?, March 31, 1915 – September 22, 1997) was a Japanese sergeantin the Imperial Japanese Army (IJA) during the Second World War. He was among the last three Japanese holdouts to be found after the end of hostilities in 1945, discovered in the jungles of Guam in January 1972, almost 28 years after US forces had regained control of the island in 1944.
AtlantiS Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Yeah amazing story.. I can remember the day it was on news worldwide.. Yes ShÅichi Yokoi(横井 庄一 Yokoi ShÅichi?, March 31, 1915 – September 22, 1997) was a Japanesesergeantin the Imperial Japanese Army (IJA) during the Second World War. He was among the last three Japanese holdouts to be found after the end of hostilities in 1945, discovered in the jungles of Guam in January 1972, almost 28 years after US forces had regained control of the island in 1944.
Drew Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Drew, we've been around and around on this, you and I. Your responses and questions demonstrate a near total ignorance in how *any* large animal research is done or what its typical outcomes are. You don't know what the forest is like. You don't know about how animals move around as populations or, apparently, individuals. And I don't have the patience or the time to educate you in the simple foundational elements necessary to carry on a debate about this. It appears as though our conversations have reached their productive end. Consider this my parting remark to you. Josh Gates was at our just concluded conference. He related a story of a woman he met in his travels who had been studying and researching the habits of Sumatran tigers and elephants. For twenty years she has been in the bush doing the yeoman's work of basic field studies. In all that time - two decades - she has seen with her own eyes one elephant. One. They have a bare handful of camera trap images of the tigers. Over twenty years. Unfortunately, I can't recall the name of this woman (though I'm going to reach out to Josh and get it from him). When I do, I'll be sure to pass it along so you can contact her and tell her what she's been doing wrong. You mean the Sumatran elephant that often gets killed by farmers because it is trashing their fields? It is a second hand story, utilized by Bigfooters, to rationalize them not being able to get verifiable evidence of a creature that they spend their free time looking for. Did he ask her if she does surveys based on things other than sightings? Dung surveys or footprint surveys? You know that scientists don't actually count animals that they are studying. They grid off an area and look for trademark examples of their existence. Chimps build nests so they count nests, Elephants poo alot, so they count their droppings. They don't go out looking for the actual animals unless they are darting one, or going to photograph one.
Guest Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 I misspoke. It was fifteen, not twenty years. From Gates' presentation: We also worked with Debbie Martyr who's a well-known researcher and conservationist. She's been working in this part of Indonesia for fifteen years. She's been doing tiger and elephant conservancy. She's been studying the Sumatran tiger and elephant in these jungles. They are definitely there. They are known to be there. There's a population of both of these animals in these jungles. She's been there for fifteen years. She has seen zero tigers and one elephant. In fifteen years. They've seen the tigers a couple of times on trap cameras and they find elephant tracks. They find scat. They never see them.
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