Guest BuzzardEater Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 Let me make an observation, here. Before television people listened to radio. Before that people listened to each other. A storyteller was a talented speaker who could enthrall listeners for hours. The old Native American languages allowed for incredible detail, unknown to modern scholars. Where the Inuit had a hundred words describing snow, the other nations had a hundred words describing the wind or the ocean or quality of the light in winter. A skillful storyteller was able to fully exploit this with rich tapestries woven in florid detail. An old carver I've heard of could tell the Cannibal Woman myth in our language (think Beowulf set in the Aleutians) for an entire evening. Today that myth is a few paragraphs when told in English. Imagine "Lord of the Rings" editted down to a thousand words. Do you think some of the meaning would be lost? It is just a story about a Hobbit that threw a ring into a volcano. There was some silliness about invisibility in there. Was it the thrust of the story? Did that part of the story become central? Is it best described as an invisible Hobbit throwing a ring into a volcano? Story elements are better left in context.
Guest Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 A storyteller was a talented speaker who could enthrall listeners for hours. Exactly. Great perspective, BuzzardEater.
Guest parnassus Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 Come on guys. Let's not let a simple discussion turn into something personal. I haven't seen any Native American bashing going on in the posts I've looked thru so let's not place any chips on our shoulders please. Both sides should be able to understand that opinions and beliefs vary. The Native Americans seem to view these creatures in a similar way as the locals in Tibet view the Yeti. More of a spiritual being. Who knows? I don't think the creatures can disappear or do supernatural things, but if I ever see one disappear in front of me, I'll subscribe to that school of thinking. Until then......Chris B. With all due respect Chris, there has never been any unamnimity, poll or consensus to show that Native Americans believe in Bigfoot. A few individual from the population believe in Bigfoot. So what? The same can be said of Anglos and Chinese... To tag a racial group with a stereotype is racism... from one with distant NA the constant attempt hereabouts to claim allegiance of trbal peoples to the believer side is unwarranted and insulting, a not so subtle form of racism. It implies that tribal people are a backward superstitious people which they are not.
indiefoot Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 A storyteller was a talented speaker who could enthrall listeners for hours. They were also the official historians before books and libraries, they didn't just make stuff up as they please did they? Were there stories that were considered sacred and other that were more entertainment?
Guest wudewasa Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 (edited) Were there stories that were considered sacred and other that were more entertainment? That depends on who you ask. We are all descended from tribal peoples. Most of us from northern european localities have little to go on, as our ancestors faced cultural annihilation from Rome and the assimilating arm of the Church. A few tales are all that remain of our past tribal culture, such as Beowulf, Fionn MacCool, Cu Chulainn and the Norse tales. The people of the far north were able to retain their heritage better against the oppressive onslaught of christian missionaries. The best example of this is the Kalevala of the Finns. This national epic was the inspiration of Tolkkien's Lord of the Rings. As far as genocide goes, the extermination of the druids on the isle of Anglesy in Wales (Inis Mona) effectively crushed the cultural backbone of the celtic people. Understand that druids were the lawyers, physicians, judges and overall professional class of the celts. They relied solely on oral tradition to convey knowledge, so when the "university" on Anglesy was destroyed and the people butchered, the collective living library was devastated. Metaphor is present in all cultural thoughts, and the understanding of these nuances is the key to gaining the knowledge inherent in a society's teachings. Mythology is the backbone of all cultures, and understanding the teachings in the stories takes training. Often, the basis of fantastic legends is a fact embellished. Check out the works of Joseph Campbell to go further on this subject. Case in point. An aboriginal Australian tribe told stories of giant animals, including a monitor lizard. For years, this story was dismissed as fantasy, until the bones of a 20 foot monitor named Megalania were unearthed. As far as what is sacred and what is secular, that depends on the collective cultural belief, as well as personal acceptance. Hopefully this helps. Edited April 19, 2011 by wudewasa
Guest Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 You can not write irony thicker than this. How quickly the believers become the very thing they scorn so much in "scoftics." How gob-smacking is the irony of dimissing Bigfoot as a metaphysical entity while invoking a metaphysical entity? For every scoff above, replace paranormal Bigfoot with just Bigfoot. Bong pipes? Lunacy and phases of the moon? That seriously just came from some Bigfoot believers towards other Bigfoot believers. If I ever see the above posters talking about "scoftics"... wait a minute... Aaaah... that was too good. I1 is not one of the myriad of scoftics on this forum, unless it is for alternatives to F&B Bigfoot. Then it's making lunar insanity references in textbook scoffing style. Too good! And for TooRisky... http://bigfootforums.com/index.php?/topic/1541-about-my-wild-unproven-claims/page__st__180 Delicious! The BFF is a place for people to discuss their experiences and look for answers and share comradery. Skeptics with rudness and no social skills - and then people discussing alternatives to F&B Bigfoot need to step away from the bong! ROFL! And the award for the most self-aware post in the entire thread goes to BobbyO... Cripes Kit, the Admin oughta charge you for wasting bandwidth like this. What the heck is "gob-smacking". I may be skeptical of the paranormal be it BF related or not, but I don't make up words trying to sound, whatever you are trying to sound like... For the non-BF skeptics in the crowd, for me this is very simple. I believe this critter is an every-day flesh & blood primate, no known species of which shape shifts or spends any time bopping between dimensions. So it follows this primate does not either. Come to think of it, NO species of any kind has been shown to shape shift or move between dimensions. For my thin & dusty dime we are looking at a standard issue animal of low population density that is pretty darn good at, as Monty Python once said, is good at "not being seen". Plain & simple.... If someday monkees are proven to do paranormal activities I will be the first here to apologize to the fringe types here...
Guest Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 (edited) Oxford Dictionary definition of Gob Smacked gobsmacked Entry from World dictionary Pronunciation:/gobsmakt/ adjective British informal utterly astonished; astounded. Edited April 19, 2011 by Redwolf
Guest JudasBeast Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 wouldn't it be something if Stephen Hawking showed up? lol I do know someone with such background who might be interested in sharing his ideas but I haven't asked him yet. He's been around the field a long time and is known for a fascinating invention. His input alone would likely warrant a new thread. Thank you for your input Theorist. Hows about inviting your friend over to the thread? Someone with such a background might be the thing we need over here. Your post inspired me to try and reach out to Mr.Steven Hawking. I'm 99% sure that his eyes will never read my email but hey,you never know.
Guest Posted April 20, 2011 Posted April 20, 2011 Thank you for your input Theorist. Hows about inviting your friend over to the thread? Someone with such a background might be the thing we need over here. Your post inspired me to try and reach out to Mr.Steven Hawking. I'm 99% sure that his eyes will never read my email but hey,you never know. I asked the individual tonight JudasBeast via email. We'll prob talk tomorrow or so as he thinks about it and then I'll let everyone here know once I do. He may choose to remain anonymous or be up front about it. Either way if he does, I hope he's treated respectfully. Could be interesting.
Guest ChrisBFRPKY Posted April 20, 2011 Posted April 20, 2011 With all due respect Chris, there has never been any unamnimity, poll or consensus to show that Native Americans believe in Bigfoot. A few individual from the population believe in Bigfoot. So what? The same can be said of Anglos and Chinese... To tag a racial group with a stereotype is racism... from one with distant NA the constant attempt hereabouts to claim allegiance of trbal peoples to the believer side is unwarranted and insulting, a not so subtle form of racism. It implies that tribal people are a backward superstitious people which they are not. Parnassus, There is abundant historical evidence available that certainly suggests some Native American tribes believed Bigfoot or similar creatures exist. Ohma certainly isn't a Yiddish word........For more info on the subject of Bigfoot and Native American perceptions, I'd suggest following some of Kathy Strain's work. I don't consider anyone backwards or superstitious no matter if we differ on our belief system or not. In no way have I ever suggested that all Native Americans must subscribe to a belief in Bigfoot or similar creatures. I remain convinced those that do have much in common with the Tibetan locals and their views on the Yeti. If you're trying to read into that being something racist, I think you may have too much time on your hands or a genuine desire for conflict. Chris B.
indiefoot Posted April 20, 2011 Posted April 20, 2011 With all due respect Chris, there has never been any unamnimity, poll or consensus to show that Native Americans believe in Bigfoot. Yet many tribes have historical names with associated legends. A few individual from the population believe in Bigfoot. So what? The same can be said of Anglos and Chinese... I thought there had never been "any unamnimity, poll or consensus". How did you come to such a certainty? To tag a racial group with a stereotype is racism... from one with distant NA the constant attempt hereabouts to claim allegiance of trbal peoples to the believer side is unwarranted and insulting, a not so subtle form of racism. It implies that tribal people are a backward superstitious people which they are not. Only "distant" NA seem to be offended, the other NA on the board, seem to be OK with it.
Guest Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) I had read part of this thread earlier this month, then drifted away.... I came back, couldnt remember where I had left off- so I re-read all 9 pages...phew!! For the most part it seems like the same old "battle lines" being drawn by the hardline skeptics, the "on the fence" crowd, and the believers (some of which beleive a little more than others.. ) I myself have formed the following opinion on the whole "dimension jumping, invisible, brain-zapping" BF's. I can only start out by stating that I myself have never seen anything like it happen. So I cant help starting from a position of at least partial skepticism...(I think that's normal). But to dismiss it as something "impossible" as many have done in this thread is also a mistake in my opinion.... First- a "defense" of the "believer" side of the argument... Most the scientific explanations of why it isnt possible that were stated here- started out with supposing the BF would have to be able to create an immense energy source, in order to "rip the fabric" of this dimension etc.. I believe theres plenty of power/energy to go around on this planet- as can be evidenced in something as simple as the lightning bolts that light up the sky during a thunder-storm..... The question then becomes "can it be tapped into?" Judging from what I do know of some abilities that humans have/know about- I'd be forced to answer in the affirmative. There is little doubt in my mind as to whether there is what a Jedi would call "The Force" (stop laughing right now!! it was the only thing that popped in my mind) type of energy that exists on/around this planet. We dont as a race (through science, religion, or philosophy) have a clue what it is truly is in my opinion. Most of humanity's existence has been spent searching for answers for questions that deal with much of what's being discussed in this thread... It is only recently that science has taken on a much larger role in trying to explain everything from death, to multiple dimensions, to the most complicated and difficult scientific questions of the day. Before that many things that have a logical scientific explanation were either attributed to a specific religion (higher powers) or were deemed monsters. I made a point in some other thread, about how people used to tell tales about things - like giant sea monsters, and dragons, and mythological beasts that we know either dont exist, or were species of animals that were mis-understood/unidentified. Im sure the first person who went out on the ocean in a boat and saw a whale- probably came back with horrific tales of a "giant sea beast" that almost capsized his boat. Later on when these became better known- they were correctly classified by science, and became part of the known animal kingdom. That being said, there are still many species that go unclassified in the Ocean's of our world, and in my opinion roaming around on the ground as well. Just because we dont know, or dont understand- does not mean they dont exist (nor does it make them monsters). I think much of the same can be said about Native American histories/tales about the origins of just about everything we see around us. They did not claim to have been given stone tablets with the rules and facts written down upon them. They (as part of the natural world) looked and found explantions for things that occurred in their every day life, by finding similarities and explantions that nature provided. Some of them may seem silly to some, but when you stop and really explore them- for the most part they are really deeply uplifting and although they may be/seem somewhat exaggerated- their beliefs go far in creating a symbiotic relationship with this world that is lacking in today's modern times. As I also mentioned in another post- some of the southwestern US Natives believed that there were dimensional portals that did exist- it was more tied to the death experience, but it was their explanation for where/how the spirits of the dead moved on to another plane or dimension. Supposedly there were roads/trails that ended at certain places for no particular reason.. (Sound familiar with some stories of BF tracks just ending??). Am I saying that I believe it ? Or that I believe BF can travel interdimensionally ? No I am not. I am willing however to concede that there are many things that happen on this chunk of rock that we call home- that defy scientific explanation, common sense, logic, and it doesnt stop the fact that these things happen. If you had asked me a few years ago if I believed in ghosts, i would have been quick to say "NO", and would take most ghost stories as utter bunk (even some things that happened years before that i witnessed, then dismissed). But what Ive seen and experienced at my brother's house over the last few years has made me firmly doubt my previous stance. When it comes down to brass tacks, its about being open minded and willing to accept ideas and theories that you dont believe/feel are possible. I am finding as I get older that the better, safer, and more polite path to follow, is one of open minded skepticism. Now: its time for the "skeptics" side.... Trust me- some of the stories Ive read, and heard about peoples experiences with BF in regards to the abilities being discussed have made me shake my head and chuckle sometimes- but there is a person stating that it did happen, and although I dont have to believe them, or agree with them, I normally "try" to give them the benefit of the doubt. The difficult part is that initially I take some of the accounts- and I make a comparison in my head. (thinking to myself)---> " I would believe this tale as much as someone who told me that BF sprouted a set of wings, and flew away over that mountain over there". Some suggestions on: Invisibility.... Some have mentioned or theorized about how BF may have evolved differently- to the point that they developed their brains in different ways that now allows them to manipulate time and space, to the point where they can vanish if front of our eyes.... To this my initial repsonse (trying to rule out the known before accepting the unknown) would be two parts. First it is possible that all this evolving, and living in the woods, has made them the "ultimate sniper" - I use that example because there are skilled humans (who dont do it "full time" BTW), that can sneak up to within a few feet of you in a ghillie suit, and you would never know they are there. Imagine how good a BF could be at this- having both way more experience at it, and also most people (even those who claim to be hardcore "woodsmen")having far less experience and knowledge of the woods and fields...? Secondly- when under extreme stress/ shock the human brain does funny things. In essence it partially shuts down- but it can also put us in a state where we experience things, people, and situations that are not happening as they are being perceived, or dont exist. Dimensional Travel.. I dont have really have much of an argument/defense for the skeptical position here- other than on a basic level the idea seems silly. I would agree with the suggestion, which has been mentioned by another poster (Chris I think), that I'd be less skeptical and more of a proponent, if I saw BF or any creature disappear through a wavering/fuzzy spot in the mid-air. Until then, I will maintain my perch on the fence. Mind-Zapping, and BF telepathy.... My inner skeptic- says, "see above on Shock"...... I myself have described a wavering shimmery feeling coming over me many years ago when I had my one and only encounter. But I also lost control of my bowels and wet myself too-(stop laughing again !! i still take crap from my brother about this!!) Im chalking both up to being in a mild state of shock. Something I experienced again years later (sans wet pants) during a nasty car crash that involved high rate of speed, car spinning out for 1500 feet down the road- going down through a 12' wide gap in the trees, and car (98 Trans-Am WS6) literally breaking into small pieces as it hit passenger side against the side of the mountain. My step-brother (who was driving) and I both thought that we were dead afterwards- especially when a State Trooper drove by us on the same road- with us standing in the other lane waving our arms for him to stop.... We were both in shock, it was a long night to say the least.. I think often times when people believe something, no matter how ridiculous it may seem to those who dont- they are just as unwilling to accept a logical conclusion, as the hard line skeptics are to accept the illogical. I think both are mistaken, in at least that its my opinion that blindly believing either side of the argument, without some acceptance of the possibility of the opposing view- normally leads to nothing more than a stalemate, and stepped on toes.. Until I learn more, and experience more- Ill remain on my fence, where my toes are safely off the ground, and unable to be stepped on. Art Edited April 21, 2011 by Art1972
Guest RayG Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 Keep in mind invisibility is not the same as the learned talent of how not to be seen. RayG
southernyahoo Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 Parnassus, There is abundant historical evidence available that certainly suggests some Native American tribes believed Bigfoot or similar creatures exist. Ohma certainly isn't a Yiddish word........For more info on the subject of Bigfoot and Native American perceptions, I'd suggest following some of Kathy Strain's work. Yep, and I don't believe people today are any more fascinated with large foot prints than the Natives were. There'seven one in there that looks like cripplefoot.
bipedalist Posted April 21, 2011 BFF Patron Posted April 21, 2011 No offense, but there's also one in the middle that looks like "Bart Simpson", must've been some bad hair day. Anywho, I also see what looks like a rattler in striking position. Which one is the cripplefoot BTW?
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