NatFoot Posted July 17, 2019 Posted July 17, 2019 47 minutes ago, Arvedis said: The problem with species identification is a reliable sample. So if you have an opportunity to prove BF, do you take the body or saw off a piece of it? Just because prehistoric dna was discovered on one sample does not mean it will be on another sample. The way samples are collected is important. How many hunters and researchers carry dna kits? Just by touching a sample you contaminate it. The field of specialists looking at your sample will scrutinize every part of it. So it has to be free of contaminants and it has to have scientific markers. Otherwise, nobody cares. And even if it does get tested somewhere, the question of who made the discovery, under what conditions, what else was in the area, etc is all looked at. It's a forensic scene. I don't think a body part would be conclusive. Need an entire body, a way to get it out of the woods, and a freezer to stash it. A skull would do it, according the Meldrum (above). Cut it's head off, stuff it in your backpack and get the hell out of there.
Arvedis Posted July 17, 2019 Posted July 17, 2019 10 minutes ago, NatFoot said: A skull would do it, according the Meldrum (above). Cut it's head off, stuff it in your backpack and get the hell out of there. I'm going to cut one's head off and put it on a pike. Then I'm going to clank rocks, wood knock, and woop really loudly, see what happens. 2
NatFoot Posted July 17, 2019 Posted July 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Arvedis said: I'm going to cut one's head off and put it on a pike. Then I'm going to clank rocks, wood knock, and woop really loudly, see what happens. I'd upvote you 10 times if I could. I literally lost it.
norseman Posted July 18, 2019 Admin Posted July 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Arvedis said: The problem with species identification is a reliable sample. So if you have an opportunity to prove BF, do you take the body or saw off a piece of it? Just because prehistoric dna was discovered on one sample does not mean it will be on another sample. The way samples are collected is important. How many hunters and researchers carry dna kits? Just by touching a sample you contaminate it. The field of specialists looking at your sample will scrutinize every part of it. So it has to be free of contaminants and it has to have scientific markers. Otherwise, nobody cares. And even if it does get tested somewhere, the question of who made the discovery, under what conditions, what else was in the area, etc is all looked at. It's a forensic scene. I don't think a body part would be conclusive. Need an entire body, a way to get it out of the woods, and a freezer to stash it. Your confusing a benign chunk of bone or hide with a adequate chunk of the creature to show morphology. If you have say a leg or head of Sasquatch? Your not going to worry about contamination. The structure of the skull or the foot would be enough to show that it was a novel species unknown to science. And touching the hair or skin will not contaminate the muscle or bone underneath. A DNA kit is a great idea for hair or scat samples though.
NatFoot Posted July 18, 2019 Posted July 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, norseman said: A DNA kit is a great idea for hair or scat samples though. Either no one has ever found real scat or hair, they're all extremely lucky - or this isn't a great idea. 😉
Twist Posted July 18, 2019 Posted July 18, 2019 I threw an upvote, that was funny I don’t care who you are! if I was close enough I’d call my dad, we could either extract it with the side by side and winch or worse case he’s a butcher, we’d harvest parts.
NatFoot Posted July 18, 2019 Posted July 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, Twist said: I threw an upvote, that was funny I don’t care who you are! if I was close enough I’d call my dad, we could either extract it with the side by side and winch or worse case he’s a butcher, we’d harvest parts. Kind of sounds like you volunteered him for all of the work! 😁
Twist Posted July 18, 2019 Posted July 18, 2019 What are dad’s for? Plus he’s still a child at heart, he’d totally be into it. 1
Arvedis Posted July 18, 2019 Posted July 18, 2019 1 hour ago, norseman said: Your confusing a benign chunk of bone or hide with a adequate chunk of the creature to show morphology. If you have say a leg or head of Sasquatch? Your not going to worry about contamination. The structure of the skull or the foot would be enough to show that it was a novel species unknown to science. And touching the hair or skin will not contaminate the muscle or bone underneath. I'm not a scientist but I know enough to know when someone else is not a scientist either. A chain of custody with genetic testing from field specimens is not straightforward. Not every scenario is the same. We are all armchair scientists to a degree but it seems in this thread and many others you are just theorizing as to what seems reasonable to you but it's not valid science to scientists or geneticists or paleo-anthropological expertise in whatever form. I guess that can be expected on internet forums. Not that I would expect to take a specimen accurately myself but if I did I would rely on someone else's educational specialization and/or training on how to do it.
norseman Posted July 18, 2019 Admin Posted July 18, 2019 20 minutes ago, Arvedis said: I'm not a scientist but I know enough to know when someone else is not a scientist either. A chain of custody with genetic testing from field specimens is not straightforward. Not every scenario is the same. We are all armchair scientists to a degree but it seems in this thread and many others you are just theorizing as to what seems reasonable to you but it's not valid science to scientists or geneticists or paleo-anthropological expertise in whatever form. I guess that can be expected on internet forums. Not that I would expect to take a specimen accurately myself but if I did I would rely on someone else's educational specialization and/or training on how to do it. And you seem to be someone that lacks any bushcraft knowledge and worries about supposed problems that really do not exist at all. Are you simply trying to throw up road blocks in some sort of knee jerk emotional response!? If I quartered a 1000 lbs bull elk and gave 1 quarter of that animal to a scientist? And they could not tell me where that animal resides in the tree of life? They must have gotten their degree out of a Cracker Jack box. But that’s OK..... because I have 3/4’s of a 1000 lbs animal left to go! If I cut small tissue samples off of each quarter and sent them off to a lab? THEN I would be worried about contamination. A giant head of a Bigfoot is going to be morphologically distinct from ANY known animal. And would give them thousands and thousands of DNA samples. But morphologically speaking alone it would be a home run. I could make out with the head or use it as a footstool and a brain tissue sample would not be contaminated by little ole me..... 2 hours ago, NatFoot said: Either no one has ever found real scat or hair, they're all extremely lucky - or this isn't a great idea. 😉 You mean unlucky? I see a lot of big scat in the woods. I assume it’s bear unless I find ole squatch bent over a log. 1
NatFoot Posted July 18, 2019 Posted July 18, 2019 ^^ Yes. My auto-spell check has been really funny lately.
Arvedis Posted July 18, 2019 Posted July 18, 2019 47 minutes ago, norseman said: Are you simply trying to throw up road blocks in some sort of knee jerk emotional response!? Nope, you are the one who trolls my posts and others, holding court on this forum as an alleged authority on whatever matters suits you. You can be lord and master of bushcraft of your world but that doesn't make your knowledge of any scientific subject valid (because it isn't. Everything I have read from you demonstrates limited scientific knowledge, compared to cracker jack university of not). That's my only point.
norseman Posted July 18, 2019 Admin Posted July 18, 2019 Just now, Arvedis said: Nope, you are the one who trolls my posts and others, holding court on this forum as an alleged authority on whatever matters suits you. You can be lord and master of bushcraft of your world but that doesn't make your knowledge of any scientific subject valid (because it isn't. Everything I have read from you demonstrates limited scientific knowledge, compared to cracker jack university of not). That's my only point. I think you have it backwards on who is trolling who. Either way it’s a public forum and I’m simply stating my opinion. Same as you.
Huntster Posted July 18, 2019 Posted July 18, 2019 I just got home from a truly rotten camping trip. The goal was to use a metal detector to find a revolver I lost over 5 years ago. The trip grew to an extended family camping trip, with different members coming and going at will, and the Mrs. going sooner than planned, and with an attitude. Well, at least my last night there was quiet and peaceful. It started with the search for the gun. I didn't find it. I found a brown tarp covered with brown leaf litter, and covering bones. The weren't moose bones. Before I instinctively threw back the tarp completely searching for a skull, I realized tgat regardless of the species of the bones, foul play was pretty apparent with the tarp scenario. The bones looked like they could be pig, goat, sheep,..........or a smaller human. Had to call the Troopers. The Troopers called in a federal Refuge LEO, picked me up at the campground, and met the fed near the site. I led them to the find. Did they look like they were concerned about "contamination"? Not one bit. They threw back the tarp and began digging through the leaf litter with their bare hands collecting bones. They didn't care when I joined the bare hand digging and bone collecting. There was no skull, and there were thankfully too many ribs to be human. Their quick determination was that somebody had poached a Dall sheep or mountain goat (both of which are plentiful in the immediate area), took the head, and dumped the carcass for me to find in the future. They arranged the bones on the forest floor, with bare hands, took pics of the bones, and said that they'd send the wildlife enforcement guy back to the site for "further investigation". The "contamination" line is just that; a line of bs they use the contaminate a ruling they don't like. The only saving grace regarding the trip was that it wasn't human. There will be no more nightmares (I had a doozy the night before I left on the trip...........got into a fight with a freak at my Mother's front door, and in the imaginary scuffle, I fell out of bed...........never did that before), no trips to the DAs office or courtroom, etc. Imagine the big time trouble a sasquatch carcass would get ya'.........even if you just stumbled upon it. 2
norseman Posted July 18, 2019 Admin Posted July 18, 2019 29 minutes ago, Huntster said: I just got home from a truly rotten camping trip. The goal was to use a metal detector to find a revolver I lost over 5 years ago. The trip grew to an extended family camping trip, with different members coming and going at will, and the Mrs. going sooner than planned, and with an attitude. Well, at least my last night there was quiet and peaceful. It started with the search for the gun. I didn't find it. I found a brown tarp covered with brown leaf litter, and covering bones. The weren't moose bones. Before I instinctively threw back the tarp completely searching for a skull, I realized tgat regardless of the species of the bones, foul play was pretty apparent with the tarp scenario. The bones looked like they could be pig, goat, sheep,..........or a smaller human. Had to call the Troopers. The Troopers called in a federal Refuge LEO, picked me up at the campground, and met the fed near the site. I led them to the find. Did they look like they were concerned about "contamination"? Not one bit. They threw back the tarp and began digging through the leaf litter with their bare hands collecting bones. They didn't care when I joined the bare hand digging and bone collecting. There was no skull, and there were thankfully too many ribs to be human. Their quick determination was that somebody had poached a Dall sheep or mountain goat (both of which are plentiful in the immediate area), took the head, and dumped the carcass for me to find in the future. They arranged the bones on the forest floor, with bare hands, took pics of the bones, and said that they'd send the wildlife enforcement guy back to the site for "further investigation". The "contamination" line is just that; a line of bs they use the contaminate a ruling they don't like. The only saving grace regarding the trip was that it wasn't human. There will be no more nightmares (I had a doozy the night before I left on the trip...........got into a fight with a freak at my Mother's front door, and in the imaginary scuffle, I fell out of bed...........never did that before), no trips to the DAs office or courtroom, etc. Imagine the big time trouble a sasquatch carcass would get ya'.........even if you just stumbled upon it. Im glad yer home safe! Sorry about the wife and the pistol. If that had been a bona fide Squatch carcass? Do you think you would have been in trouble?
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