norseman Posted October 31, 2023 Admin Posted October 31, 2023 29 minutes ago, Huntster said: Hello? Hello? *Is this thing turned on?* Dude, they don’t want them discovered! Neither does government! So, no Native American tribe wants Bigfoot to recognized as a real species? Do you have any reference material to back that up? A link?👀
Huntster Posted October 31, 2023 Posted October 31, 2023 1 hour ago, norseman said: The only USFWS around here is here. https://www.fws.gov/refuge/little-pend-oreille And I don’t go there. Break one of their millions of regs. They deliver.
Huntster Posted October 31, 2023 Posted October 31, 2023 1 hour ago, norseman said: So, no Native American tribe wants Bigfoot to recognized as a real species? Do you have any reference material to back that up? A link?👀 I’ve heard that they say that you won’t even see one if you aren’t worthy. That means most of us. And no, they aren’t the types to write that down in a big, black book or demand discussion IAW Roberts Rules of Order.
DrPSH Posted October 31, 2023 Posted October 31, 2023 I, for one, appreciate the passionate discussion in this specific thread. @hiflier, kudos to you for not giving up. @Huntster, dude, you have the most amazing life experiences! Not sure what you have experienced in your past exploits with the ESA (you have probably shared that with the forum and I just haven't found it) but you have me leaning into the potential for - at worst - a robust discussion in a court of law about something that could be the start of some actual action from the feds in terms of boots on the ground supportive research. OR...it is possible that both of you are the world's best method actors playing a courtroom scene back and forth. Regardless of which it is, I appreciate the opportunity to 'read along' with this discussion. I can't offer legal expertise and I'm not sure I have ever met someone from the FWS (closest I've come is meeting some nice park rangers, NOT the same but like I said, they were very nice). Life is 'life-ing' at the moment, I can't promise that I can keep up with this dialogue in the short term, but just wanted to say thanks for taking my mind in a different direction on the topic of our mutual favorite furry friend. 1
Twist Posted October 31, 2023 Posted October 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Huntster said: I’ve heard that they say that you won’t even see one if you aren’t worthy Does that speak of a flesh and blood belief or a spiritual one? If it’s flesh and blood then worthiness means nill compared to time/location?
georgerm Posted November 1, 2023 Author Posted November 1, 2023 Highflier thanks for getting this process going, and your creek and stream DNA collection method is a big leap forward. Before we can get anywhere on this endangered bigfoot endeavor, we need to understand the federal process shown below. After some searching and reading about getting the US Department of Interior/ U.S. Fish and Wildlife service to consider Bigfoot as an endangered species, certain steps must be taken. The US Forest service is under the department of Agriculture and don't know their involvement yet. We don't want two federal agencies to deal with. Our first step is to get several highlevel biologist to petition the Fish and Wildlife Department as described below. We already have enough facts on bigfoot to easily write a 750 page report and video to submit to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Contact Center for Biological Diversity but don't mention bigfoot and find out their process then explain to us. U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ECOS Environmental Conservation Online System Conserving the Nature of America ECOS Species Reports Endangered Species Act Petitions Received by the Fish and Wildlife Service Endangered Species Act Petitions Received by the Fish and Wildlife Service This report represents petitions received by the Fish & Wildlife Service. Notes: This report only includes Federal Register publications relating the petition process. Any further publications (proposed and final rulings) are not included in this report. This report may include petitions related to the Administrative Procedures Act (APA) as pertaining to the Endangered Species Act (ESA). If you need a copy of the petition document, please contact your local Fish & Wildlife Service (FWS) office. Column Descriptions Petition Title: Full title of petition analogous to a description Statutory Start Date: The earliest date that the petition was received by any office of the Fish and Wildlife Service or the Department of the Interior. Where the species is believed to or known to occur: States and/or countries where the species on the petition are believed to or known to occur. The information in this column will update as the FWS has new information. It could deviate from what the original petition noted. Petitioner Name(s): Name(s) of the petitioner(s). Multiple petitioners are represented as a bulleted list within the report. Requested Action(s): Action(s) as requested by the petitioner(s). Multiple actions are represented by a bulleted list within the report. Petition Finding(s): Finding(s) as published in the Federal Register. Multiple findings are represented by a bulleted list within the report. Active: Active/Inactive boolean status Petition Documents: List of petition related documents Include Inactive Petitions: TSN: CSV Show 102550All entries Search: 281 Petitions Received - (Include Inactive Petitions: false, TSN: All TSNs) Petition Title Statutory Start Date Where the species is believed to or known to occur Petitioner Name(s) Requested Action(s) Petition Finding(s) Active Petition Documents Petition to revise the January 5, 1990, Mount Graham Red Squirrel Critical Habitat 2017/12/14 AZ Center for Biological Diversity true CH REVISION PETITION 20171214 FINAL.pdf PETITION TO LIST THE ALEXANDER ARCHIPELAGO WOLF (CANIS LUPUS LIGONI) IN SOUTHEAST ALASKA AS THREATENED OR ENDANGERED UNDER THE U.S. ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT 2020/07/15 AK Center for Biological Diversity, Alaska Rainforest Defenders, and Defenders of Wildlife Listing: Threatened or Endangered APA: Designate Critical Habitat true 20 07 15 Petition to list the Alexander Archipelago wolf in Southeast Alaska under the ESA final.pdf 2 species of butterfly - Euphilotes ancilla purpura and Euphilotes ancilla cryptica; List T/E 2011/10/06 NV, United States WildEarth Guardians Listing: Threatened or Endangered 90 day petition finding Substantial on 08/07/2012 true
Huntster Posted November 1, 2023 Posted November 1, 2023 1 hour ago, DrPSH said: .........@Huntster, dude, you have the most amazing life experiences! Not sure what you have experienced in your past exploits with the ESA (you have probably shared that with the forum and I just haven't found it) but you have me leaning into the potential for - at worst - a robust discussion in a court of law about something that could be the start of some actual action from the feds in terms of boots on the ground supportive research......... No direct experience with the courts in ESA matters, but some experience in the public works industry with it. I have had experience in federal court with federal employee matters. It was the kind of experience I wouldn't call exciting, except for the part about his threats, which were greatly exaggerated. Quote .........OR...it is possible that both of you are the world's best method actors playing a courtroom scene back and forth........ As tired as I got with Hollywood Who-Dunnits and Perry Mason shows, it was a fun exchange with hiflier! I felt like My Cousin Vinny! 1
norseman Posted November 1, 2023 Admin Posted November 1, 2023 4 hours ago, Huntster said: Well, Hell! Imagine that! Is that the guy you expect to give you a slap on the shoulder with congratulatory lauds when you shoot one? I you can’t even look for one without a permit (and you don’t qualify for that, because you aren’t accredited, and because they don’t exist) you think shooting one is going to be met with slobbery love? I missed this. No, you cannot STUDY known wildlife on USFWS lands without a permit. I guess since Bigfoot DO NOT exist? You do not need a permit. I am guessing something benign like bird watching is fine. But nets and radio collars are probably frowned upon.👍
Huntster Posted November 1, 2023 Posted November 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Twist said: Does that speak of a flesh and blood belief or a spiritual one? If it’s flesh and blood then worthiness means nill compared to time/location? It's both. This was one of the best books I've read in my life: https://www.amazon.com/Make-Prayers-Raven-Koyukon-Northern/dp/0226571637 It explains aboriginal Koyukon spirituality perfectly. A chapter on the woodsman (sasquatch) is included. It's required reading for anybody wishing to understand native spirituality. Check the Amazon reviews My thread on this from 2004: 1
hiflier Posted November 1, 2023 Posted November 1, 2023 (edited) Thank you, Huntster, I've definitely learned some good things from you about this stuff. And thank you, too, DrPSH and georgerm. I have to admit, sometimes I get a little burnt out from such efforts and need breaks. But this thread has been one of those really interesting and, I hope, positive in it's subject and direction. On the DNA side, since I prefer winter research to look for a trackway to sample, including solo camping in my camper shell depending on how far my travels take me, so far I have not found anything to get from snow prints. This winter is supposed to be more active weather-wise so who knows- maybe something will show itself. Norseman, you are right about the permits to STUDY wildlife. But something "mythical" wouldn't qualify for a permit. They wouldn't dare issue you one for such purposes so the field is wide open in regards to our Hairy Friend I also think Twist's post about Bigfoot being flesh and blood or spiritual was great. Either case would be a good discussion and both characteristics rolled into one would go deeper still into both of those concepts. There has been much already covered in each of them but Wild creatures do seem to have a very precise way of reading their habitats so flesh and blood AND spiritual, though it may not be a true spiritual thing would be a fascinating talk. For instance, Wendigo IS a spiritual concept involving a personification of insatiable greed. Huntster's post above says it all. Edited November 1, 2023 by hiflier 1
Huntster Posted November 1, 2023 Posted November 1, 2023 28 minutes ago, norseman said: ........I am guessing something benign like bird watching is fine. But nets and radio collars are probably frowned upon.👍 Yeah, if you're watching a nice buck through binoculars and your mouth starts to water, you must lower the binocs and run to get a hunger permit to continue watching.
hiflier Posted November 1, 2023 Posted November 1, 2023 3 minutes ago, Huntster said: Yeah, if you're watching a nice buck through binoculars and your mouth starts to water, you must lower the binocs and run to get a hunger permit to continue watching. A drooling permit is probably closer to being accurate 1
norseman Posted November 1, 2023 Admin Posted November 1, 2023 2 hours ago, hiflier said: Thank you, Huntster, I've definitely learned some good things from you about this stuff. And thank you, too, DrPSH and georgerm. I have to admit, sometimes I get a little burnt out from such efforts and need breaks. But this thread has been one of those really interesting and, I hope, positive in it's subject and direction. On the DNA side, since I prefer winter research to look for a trackway to sample, including solo camping in my camper shell depending on how far my travels take me, so far I have not found anything to get from snow prints. This winter is supposed to be more active weather-wise so who knows- maybe something will show itself. Norseman, you are right about the permits to STUDY wildlife. But something "mythical" wouldn't qualify for a permit. They wouldn't dare issue you one for such purposes so the field is wide open in regards to our Hairy Friend I also think Twist's post about Bigfoot being flesh and blood or spiritual was great. Either case would be a good discussion and both characteristics rolled into one would go deeper still into both of those concepts. There has been much already covered in each of them but Wild creatures do seem to have a very precise way of reading their habitats so flesh and blood AND spiritual, though it may not be a true spiritual thing would be a fascinating talk. For instance, Wendigo IS a spiritual concept involving a personification of insatiable greed. Huntster's post above says it all. Yah the state of Washington requires a “discover” pass to be on state lands….. https://www.discoverpass.wa.gov Little do they know the jokes on them!
Huntster Posted November 1, 2023 Posted November 1, 2023 14 minutes ago, norseman said: Yah the state of Washington requires a “discover” pass to be on state lands….. I remember as a teenager when the state of California started requiring a permit to hike in the Sierras. That's when I knew that I had to leave. Nothing like that in Alaska on unclassified state lands. Indeed, under General Use rules, you can fire up your chainsaw and cut your own trail. No permit needed. 1
Chim Chim Posted November 1, 2023 Posted November 1, 2023 I don't have an issue with an entrance/parking fee for state lands as long as there's some kind of decent facilities, there's no denying there's a cost involved and if extra cash is needed for it those using it should be willing to ante up. But if there's no facilities or if they're rundown that irks me because I feel I'm being taken advantage of. If you're a veteran make sure you get your pass for federal lands, they're free and a lifetime pass.
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