Government Coverup?

[BlackRockBigfoot]

6 minutes ago, norseman said:

Since we are on government coverups here in this thread?

 

Have we gotten anywhere with FOIA requests?

Has there been any FOIA requests generated by members of the forum?

 

A fellow researcher who isn’t on this forum has been working the FOIA angle on a case that received nationwide attention.  He’s gotten some interesting information.  He is still on the process of submitting…trying to nail down the info that he wants.  

[BlackRockBigfoot]

1 hour ago, Twist said:

Do all people in BF research have to all jump on board with new technology?   We abandon methods that work with the vast majority of other animals or species?   There are researchers out there doing DNA testing.  There are researchers out there call blasting.   There are researchers with Flirs, drones, or even drum sets for heavens sakes.    
 

You seem to make the same assumption or mistake hiflier did last week that I pointed out.  The BFF represents just a small fraction of ppl looking for BF.  The posters on here that are active probably represent a small fraction of ppl that view the site.     The methods discussed on here probably only represent a small fraction of peoples efforts.    
 

Making a blanket statement about research based on discussions here on the BFF is rather narrow minded IMO.   

I am out of upvotes, but this is a great post.

[norseman]

15 minutes ago, BlackRockBigfoot said:

Has there been any FOIA requests generated by members of the forum?

 

A fellow researcher who isn’t on this forum has been working the FOIA angle on a case that received nationwide attention.  He’s gotten some interesting information.  He is still on the process of submitting…trying to nail down the info that he wants.  

I found this.

 

https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/bigfoot-unprocessed-fbi-74918/#file-792451

[hiflier]

1 hour ago, norseman said:

Would you rather sample air for DNA in a clear cut that is empty? Or would you rather sample for DNA in a clear cut that has a promising thermal target in it?

 

You both are proponents of technology, but in different fields. Instead of being combative? Wouldn’t it make more sense to work together?

 

A rhetorical question but in truth, it wouldn't matter. Because most researchers go into areas known for activity. At least the ones here say that's what they do and it's why they go where they go. It's why I go where I go. I haven't seen a trackway in snow, but then I'm not diving two miles into snow covered woods or terrain either. If the wind is coming my way though, then something a half mile in would get detected, with or without my thermal aimed in that direction. As it is, no trackway and I get nothing on my thermal? I move on. Does that mean a creature isn't close by? Nope, it doesn't.

[BugMaster]

My thoughts are that there may not be a "cover up", but the government may be ignoring their existence because of economic and ecologic reasons.

 

1. If Sasquatch were confirmed to exist, by the government, there would have to be some kind of IUCN or endangered listing. No question. A large mammal with a likely ~1 year gestation period plus a long childhood (slow sexual maturation) would mean their low numbers would stay low and take a long time to even reach anywhere near the carrying capacity of the habitat. Environmental law would be all over it.

2. Their habitat would be forested areas that the USFS constantly manages, works in, and assesses. The industries of forestry and logging would take a huge hit. We would have to source our wood, lumber, paper, etc. from outside sources. Granted, this could be a good thing, too. Habitat that is Sasquatch territory would likely be further managed and protected, meaning fewer forests being leveled and harvested.

2a. Management costs money. LOTS of money. To avoid the cost, the government could be ignoring the fact that these creatures exist. It would be easier (big air quotes) to ignore their existence and just keep doing what they do. I have heard stories of some national parks folks saying the same thing on podcasts and articles.

 

I don't know if I would consider Sasquatch + government a cover-up or conspiracy, but knowing some of the details behind management of resources, I feel these are the above are likely reasons that we are not getting a "yes, they exist" from the government.

 

But, for what it's worth, Sasquatch popped up in a few "wilderness guides" the military used to use back in the day 

[norseman]

12 minutes ago, hiflier said:

 

A rhetorical question but in truth, it wouldn't matter. Because most researchers go into areas known for activity. At least the ones here say that's what they do and it's why they go where they go. It's why I go where I go. I haven't seen a trackway in snow, but then I'm not diving two miles into snow covered woods or terrain either. If the wind is coming my way though, then something a half mile in would get detected, with or without my thermal aimed in that direction. As it is, no trackway and I get nothing on my thermal? I move on. Does that mean a creature isn't close by? Nope, it doesn't.

So you are currently using this technology to sample wind currents in your chosen area?

 

I would certainly think that a confirmed visual sighting of your target species would be a better approach than just sampling the air randomly.

 

 

[hiflier]

2 hours ago, BlackRockBigfoot said:

When you had an opportunity to steer a legitimate DNA collection effort with the willing members of this forum, why did you let that effort just fade away?

 

I wouldn't say that working for over three years to get members to accept the tech and get on board is exactly letting the effort fade away. People didn't want to do the work. Didn't want to contact a university and generate a conversation to set up a testing possibility in their area. I didn't drop the ball on that. No one wanted to follow through. Go ahead blame me for that but there's only so much one person can do before they realize that in the end they are still left to themselves to carry it all wiiawiwb wants someone to find a lab and get everything set up for him and THEN he might give things some consideration?

 

I laid out how to contact a facility or a university, I laid out ow to collect a sample, I laid out the genetics end of things and gave reasons for it pursuit. It was a nightmare in having to defending everything in an effort to get even one member involved. Of course the thread died. I have since brought up the subject many time and includes papers to read, new discoveries, right up to and including this thread. What has the general response been? It's almost to embarrassing to say what the response has been other than to say it's been the same.

 

What conclusion of the whole history and picture of trying to get members to understand and trust this tech- only to get dismissed, AGAIN- is this: Bigfoot researchers deserve all the ridicule and eye rolling they complain about. And it's no one's fault but their own. Step fully into science to solve the mystery? What a joke. And the world just keeps on laughing.

 

FOIA? Great.

Thermal image? Great.

Footprint cast? (ask Meldrum). Great.

Bigfoot nests? Great.

Video? Great.

Photos? Great.

Audio recordings? Great.

Proof?....meh.

New approach? No, why? We're doing fine the way things are.

[BlackRockBigfoot]

12 minutes ago, BugMaster said:

My thoughts are that there may not be a "cover up", but the government may be ignoring their existence because of economic and ecologic reasons.

 

1. If Sasquatch were confirmed to exist, by the government, there would have to be some kind of IUCN or endangered listing. No question. A large mammal with a likely ~1 year gestation period plus a long childhood (slow sexual maturation) would mean their low numbers would stay low and take a long time to even reach anywhere near the carrying capacity of the habitat. Environmental law would be all over it.

2. Their habitat would be forested areas that the USFS constantly manages, works in, and assesses. The industries of forestry and logging would take a huge hit. We would have to source our wood, lumber, paper, etc. from outside sources. Granted, this could be a good thing, too. Habitat that is Sasquatch territory would likely be further managed and protected, meaning fewer forests being leveled and harvested.

2a. Management costs money. LOTS of money. To avoid the cost, the government could be ignoring the fact that these creatures exist. It would be easier (big air quotes) to ignore their existence and just keep doing what they do. I have heard stories of some national parks folks saying the same thing on podcasts and articles.

 

I don't know if I would consider Sasquatch + government a cover-up or conspiracy, but knowing some of the details behind management of resources, I feel these are the above are likely reasons that we are not getting a "yes, they exist" from the government.

 

But, for what it's worth, Sasquatch popped up in a few "wilderness guides" the military used to use back in the day 

Valid points all.  2a is the same reason that accounts for denials of mountain lions.  

[hiflier]

13 minutes ago, norseman said:

I would certainly think that a confirmed visual sighting of your target species would be a better approach than just sampling the air randomly.

 

Keep thinking that way. Have you had a confirmed visual sighting? I haven't. So best course of action? I KNOW! Do nothing until I have one. Yeah, that's the ticket. In other words just mosey along and do what everyone else is doing?. Ain't gonna happen.

[norseman]

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdfExtended/S0960-9822(21)01650-X

 

More than one-third of the recovered sequences matched cow (Bos taurus), horse (Equus caballus), pig (Sus scrofa), or chicken (Gallus gallus). While we cannot preclude DNA drifting in from the surrounding countryside, it is likely that these represent food provided to the carnivores. Particularly high concentrations of chicken DNA were detected in the binturong (Arctictis binturong) and tayra (E. barbara) enclosures, while horse, cow, and pig were concentrated in samples from the dingo enclosure, correctly matched with dietary provisions by zoo staff

 

This means that the eDNA did NOT come from the surrounding countryside. It came from the zoo staff themselves. Therefore it is safe to assume that 1/2 mile away is a complete WAG. We are talking meters not miles in this study.

[norseman]

6 minutes ago, hiflier said:

 

Keep thinking that way. Have you had a confirmed visual sighting? I haven't. So best course of action? I KNOW! Do nothing until I have one. Yeah, that's the ticket. In other words just mosey along and do what everyone else is doing?. Ain't gonna happen.

If I had a thermal scope? I might have had one already. My experience with thermal technology. (Fire dept and fellow hunter)

 

Look at you? Your talking about technology that isn’t even proven! 

[BlackRockBigfoot]

Is there ANYONE in this thread who is passionately advocating for e-DNA testing currently involved with the collection and submission of samples that they have collected on the field… more specifically the air and water samples that have been discussed here?  

 

If so, can you share some of your findings as well as some photos of your collection methods.  Real world stuff, not hypotheticals or something that you read about online.  Can you explain the costs that you have personally incurred and compare those costs to the results that you have been able to produce?  Perhaps this would make a good case for getting others involved.  

 

If not, can you explain why you are raking other members over the coals for not engaging in costly research that you are currently not doing yourself?  
 

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by BlackRockBigfoot

[Foxhill]

4 minutes ago, BlackRockBigfoot said:

Is there ANYONE in this thread who is passionately advocating for e-DNA testing currently involved with the collection and submission of samples that they have collected on the field… more specifically the air and water samples that have been discussed here?  

 

If so, can you share some of your findings as well as some photos of your collection methods.  Real world stuff, not hypotheticals or something that you read about online.  Can you explain the costs that you have personally incurred and compare those costs to the results that you have been able to produce?  Perhaps this would make a good case for getting others involved.  

 

If not, can you explain why you are raking other members over the coals for not engaging in costly research that you yourself are currently not doing yourself?  
 

 

 

 

Exactly......

 

[hiflier]

43 minutes ago, norseman said:

Look at you? Your talking about technology that isn’t even proven!

 

*SIGH* There is no talking to you, Norseman, when you shut down like that. Two nearly identical papers come out last May showing not just zoo animals but domestic animals from miles away, along with a rare species, and how do you respond? "...it isn't even proven!" Says it all.

[norseman]

3 minutes ago, hiflier said:

 

*SIGH* There is no talking to you, Norseman, when you shut down like that. Two nearly identical papers come out last May showing not just zoo animals but domestic animals from miles away, along with a rare species, and how do you respond? "...it isn't even proven!" Says it all.

I think you need to read up a few posts. They NEVER said domestic animals miles away. They said it probably came from the meat that the zoo was feeding the carnivores! Oops! So we are talking meters…. Not MILES.

 

Besides, these are scientists experimenting with this technology….. that’s called an EXPERIMENT. When and if this equipment is affordable and available to the layman like you and I, is anyone’s guess!

 

On the other hand? FLIR is solid technology and available and has been for years. So are you going to rush out and buy a hunting rifle and mount a FLIR scope on it? I mean your all about technology and expediency in proving this creature exists right? My bet is a solid NO. So that’s hypocritical.

 

You can’t even read the data right. And your pushing a technology that is unproven in the wild. And the when you get called on it? You get puffed up! Oh well.