norseman Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 20 minutes ago, Huntster said: All behaviors, not genetic code. I'm not the the guy trying to use them to assign taxonomy to a creature that still hasn't even been verified as existing. Probably so. But if the taxonomy goes through the genus Homo, it would still be human. It's not my terminology. Nor did I assign genus to Homo habilis, Homo Neanderthalis, Homo floresensis, Homo Denisovan, etc. All I've done is posted definitions and used the terminology correctly. We can't have the specific conversation that you insist we have because th definitions don't fit your ideology. Again, correct. Now, that agreed upon (for the umpteenth time), to what current genus would you assign Patty? Or would you invent one? Your bipedalism and your brain size are NOT behaviors….. they were given to you by your parents. If your parents were Chimps? You would be a quadruped with a 400 cc brain. 🤷♂️ And you would not be stabbing dinner to death with a stone hand axe. IF Patty is NOT a Human….Homo Sapien. Let’s use human for Homo Sapien. I am not taking about Neanderthals or Denisovans,etc,etc,etc. Yes! They belong to the genus Homo. But if I am talking about something other than a Homo Sapien I will spell it out. What ideology? Current genus? What do you mean by current? The only bipedal ape left in ANY genus is modern humans…. Past genus? Homo Paranthropus Australopethecus Etc, Etc….. Where a cryptid ape man would be placed on the tree of life is anyone’s guess. But there are more bipedal ape species OUTSIDE the genus Homo than inside. And those inside the genus are associated with either fire and stone tool manufacture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIB Posted November 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 18, 2023 3 hours ago, norseman said: May I ask why? I know inbred populations get some crazy mutations. But I am not talking about 6 toes or fingers. I'm grasping for words here. There are two interacting factors, population size and environmental survival stress. Presumably if you have a large population, it isn't under extreme stress over long periods of time, it is stable. In that setting, most mutations that aren't fatal don't have much survival benefit either. An unusual individual probably swaps genes with normal individuals and gets averaged back into the population in a few generations. With a small group under great selective stress from environmental factors, a small mutation might prove fatal, but it also might confer survival advantages so that within a couple generations all surviving members have inherited that trait and those without have mostly perished. I think ... maybe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntster Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 12 minutes ago, norseman said: Your bipedalism and your brain size are NOT behaviors….. Bipedalism is a behavior. Brain size is not. Quote ........they were given to you by your parents....... Not genetically. If I was abandoned by my parents and raised by wolves, I would likely be a quadraped, and probably for life. Do I need to post more links and references to feral children for you? Why are you having such a difficult time with this. It isn't theory. It is a recurring reality. Behaviors are not genetic code, but your genetic code identifies your species positively. Quote .......If your parents were Chimps? You would be a quadruped with a 400 cc brain........ If your parents were chimps, you would be a chimp with a 400 cc brain.......but you might be taught how to walk bipedally by a Homo sapien.......just because that particular Homo sapien was trying to prove something, or didn't have a real, meaningful job. You might be taught how to smoke cigars. You might even be launched into orbit around the Earth in a space capsule on top of a Mercury rocket. But you'd still be a chimp. Quote ........And you would not be stabbing dinner to death with a stone hand axe........ If course not. I'd call the police, and if they didn't arrive in time, I'd shoot it with a modern firearm. Then I'd pull out my hunting license, point to the provisions regarding Defense of Life or Property and deleterious wildlife, and insist that it was now my chimp. Do you think I would get to keep the carcass? Quote .......Patty is NOT a Human….Homo Sapien........ Patty is *not likely* a Homo sapien, but *might* be human. (You might try to posit that she was a pithecene, but I'm waiting for you here in the weeds. You won't like it......) Quote ......What ideology?...... Frankly, I don't know, and I really don't care. I'm not interested in trying to categorize your beliefs, but I am quite interested in defending mine. Quote .......Let’s use human for Homo Sapien. I am not taking about Neanderthals or Denisovans,etc,etc,etc. Yes! They belong to the genus Homo. But if I am talking about something other than a Homo Sapien I will spell it out........ That's fine. But, conversely, I'm not obligated to use the language improperly like you,insist on doing, and I will not follow your examples. Quote .......Current genus? What do you mean by current? The only bipedal ape left in ANY genus is modern humans…. Hmmmmmm........... Well, if Patty was not of the genus Homo, was she Pongid? Gorilla? Pongo? Pithecene? Quote ......Where a cryptid ape man would be placed on the tree of life is anyone’s guess....... Why, thank you! I guess genus Homo. Quote .........But there are more bipedal ape species OUTSIDE the genus Homo than inside.......... Please name some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 8 minutes ago, Huntster said: Please name some. I just did. As for the rest? Maybe we can pass a hat around and get you to a community college. Feral children are not applicable to our conversation. Neither are bipedal circus dogs. 🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntster Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 14 minutes ago, norseman said: I just did........ Would you place Patty in the Paranthropus or Australopethecus genus? Quote .......As for the rest? Maybe we can pass a hat around and get you to a community college........ I have associates and bachelors degrees, and have no need for or interest in a masters, thanks. Quote .......Feral children are not applicable to our conversation. Neither are bipedal circus dogs. They do if you insist that behaviors dictate taxonomy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 1 hour ago, Huntster said: Would you place Patty in the Paranthropus or Australopethecus genus? I have associates and bachelors degrees, and have no need for or interest in a masters, thanks. They do if you insist that behaviors dictate taxonomy. Possibly. No. You do. Seriously. So where do you place the bipedal circus dog? What genus? Homo? What about the wolf girl? Is she a canid? What about a pilot? Are they a bird species? You’re using hyperbole in an attempt to win a debate. We are talking about species. Not one in a million special cases. Your bipedal Huntster because of your hips you inherited from your DNA. It’s not a behavior.🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntster Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 8 hours ago, norseman said: ........So where do you place the bipedal circus dog? What genus? Homo?........ It's canine. It's learned behavior has absolutely nothing to do with it's genetic makeup. You are the one demanding me to believe that behavior dictates species taxonomy. I reject your ideology. Quote .........What about the wolf girl? Is she a canid?........ She was Homo sapien. Her learned behavior has absolutely nothing to do with her genetic makeup. You are the one demanding me to believe that behavior dictates species taxonomy. I reject your ideology. Quote ........What about a pilot? Are they a bird species?......... A pilot is a Homo sapien. His learned behavior has absolutely nothing to do with his genetic makeup. You are the one demanding me to believe that behavior dictates species taxonomy. I reject your ideology. Is a flying squirrel a bird genus? Quote .........You’re using hyperbole in an attempt to win a debate......... This debate is a sham. It cannot be "won". It is a manufactured ideology. You are consumed by it so completely that you cannot even see outside if it. Quote .........We are talking about species. Not one in a million special cases.......... We are talking about species. Not learned behavior. Teaching a gorilla to communicate with sign language doesn't make her Homo sapien. Teaching a dog to walk bipedally doesn't make him a Homo sapien. Teaching a gorilla how to start a fire doesn't make him a man. Teaching a chimp how to make a stone hammer doesn't make him a man. Quote ........Your bipedal Huntster because of your hips you inherited from your DNA. It’s not a behavior.🤷♂️ Thus, IAW your ideology, a sasquatch is an Australopithecus africanus, or a homo sapien? I wonder what my 500 lb Samoan friend's pelvis looked like next to that of an African pygmy tribesman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 1 hour ago, Huntster said: It's canine. It's learned behavior has absolutely nothing to do with it's genetic makeup. You are the one demanding me to believe that behavior dictates species taxonomy. I reject your ideology. She was Homo sapien. Her learned behavior has absolutely nothing to do with her genetic makeup. You are the one demanding me to believe that behavior dictates species taxonomy. I reject your ideology. A pilot is a Homo sapien. His learned behavior has absolutely nothing to do with his genetic makeup. You are the one demanding me to believe that behavior dictates species taxonomy. I reject your ideology. Is a flying squirrel a bird genus? This debate is a sham. It cannot be "won". It is a manufactured ideology. You are consumed by it so completely that you cannot even see outside if it. We are talking about species. Not learned behavior. Teaching a gorilla to communicate with sign language doesn't make her Homo sapien. Teaching a dog to walk bipedally doesn't make him a Homo sapien. Teaching a gorilla how to start a fire doesn't make him a man. Teaching a chimp how to make a stone hammer doesn't make him a man. Thus, IAW your ideology, a sasquatch is an Australopithecus africanus, or a homo sapien? I wonder what my 500 lb Samoan friend's pelvis looked like next to that of an African pygmy tribesman? No. You’re trying to flip the script…….🤔 I say humans are bipedal. So you show me a feral girl that acts like a dog to refute that humans are bipedal. Which is ridiculous. The 500 lb Samoan will have the same pelvis as an African Pygmy…. They are the same species. Neither will look like the pelvis of a Chimpanzee….a quadruped.🤷♂️ This is what I am talking about! Debating you is like debating a 6th grader. Go take a Biology course or start reading up on biology….. As to what Sasquatch is or isn’t will require a body. All I will say? Is it’s NOT a Homo Sapien. I think I am done with this thread.🫡 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntster Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, norseman said: No. You’re trying to flip the script…….🤔 I'm not an actor in your science fiction movie. I reject your script, and I will not read it in your production. Quote .......I say humans are bipedal........ I agree. Quote ........So you show me a feral girl that acts like a dog to refute that humans are bipedal......... No, I don't. I show you a Homo sapien girl who was raised by dogs. Her quadrupedal behavior afterwards, difficult to impossible to reverse, is the scientifically known and understood principle involving early childhood development. By this, they realize that one must "learn to be human". Genetically, of course, that isn't true. But behaviorally, it is. Thus, behavior is not a factor in taxonomy. This is the principle that I'm arguing, the principle you reject (despite your unwillingness to admit it), and this would establish that creatures like either Zana or Patty *might* be of the genus Homo regardless of whether or not they manufactured or used tools or fire. Finally, if you are of the genus Homo, you are *human*, regardless of your definition of the word, and thus if you killed such a creature, you will commit the act of homicide. Quote ........The 500 lb Samoan will have the same pelvis as an African Pygmy…. They are the same species. Neither will look like the pelvis of a Chimpanzee….a quadruped........ That is your opinion. Mine is that the three pelvises will be dramatically different from each other, and none of that will matter with regard to species identification. What would matter are reproductive potential and genetic code. Quote .........This is what I am talking about! Debating you is like debating a 6th grader. Go take a Biology course or start reading up on biology….. I passed the 6th grade in the 1960's in a parochial school, and thus was free of your indoctrination. I remain free. I even remember my 6th grade teacher; Mr. McKiernan. Nice young man; dark hair, well dressed, black framed glasses. He was a breath of fresh air after Mr. Geoders in 5th grade. What a freaking monster he was! I'm not interested in wasting my time on your suggested reading list in order to justify your need to kill a sasquatch. Just go do it! You have my blessing. Quote ........As to what Sasquatch is or isn’t will require a body. All I will say? Is it’s NOT a Homo Sapien. I think I am done with this thread. Okay. You are as welcome to your opinion as I am to mine, and I wish you all the best in your quest to kill however many sasquatches you need to in order to validate your opinion, but I will not contribute to your legal defense fund. Edited November 18, 2023 by Huntster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 4 hours ago, Huntster said: I'm not an actor in your science fiction movie. I reject your script, and I will not read it in your production. I agree. No, I don't. I show you a Homo sapien girl who was raised by dogs. Her quadrupedal behavior afterwards, difficult to impossible to reverse, is the scientifically known and understood principle involving early childhood development. By this, they realize that one must "learn to be human". Genetically, of course, that isn't true. But behaviorally, it is. Thus, behavior is not a factor in taxonomy. This is the principle that I'm arguing, the principle you reject (despite your unwillingness to admit it), and this would establish that creatures like either Zana or Patty *might* be of the genus Homo regardless of whether or not they manufactured or used tools or fire. Finally, if you are of the genus Homo, you are *human*, regardless of your definition of the word, and thus if you killed such a creature, you will commit the act of homicide. That is your opinion. Mine is that the three pelvises will be dramatically different from each other, and none of that will matter with regard to species identification. What would matter are reproductive potential and genetic code. I passed the 6th grade in the 1960's in a parochial school, and thus was free of your indoctrination. I remain free. I even remember my 6th grade teacher; Mr. McKiernan. Nice young man; dark hair, well dressed, black framed glasses. He was a breath of fresh air after Mr. Geoders in 5th grade. What a freaking monster he was! I'm not interested in wasting my time on your suggested reading list in order to justify your need to kill a sasquatch. Just go do it! You have my blessing. Okay. You are as welcome to your opinion as I am to mine, and I wish you all the best in your quest to kill however many sasquatches you need to in order to validate your opinion, but I will not contribute to your legal defense fund. So a prairie dog is raised by beavers. Beavers build dams. They build dams because they have evolved wood chopper teeth. A prairie dog can run with the beavers because the beavers take care of him. That doesn’t make him a beaver. Just like the wolf girl doesn’t prove what you think it does. Again this is just an extreme example to prop up your rotten shoddy argument. The genus Homo is associated with stone tool manufacturing and or fire. Go visit a museum if this somehow confuses you. And the Wolf Girl doesn’t refute this TRUTH. We are talking about whole species…….NOT one individual. Do Beavers build dams? Yes or no? Is this something most species do? Yes or No? What came first? Beaver dams or Beaver teeth? What came first? Opposable thumbs or flaked obsidian? What came first? Bipedalism or bigger brains? (Piltdown man hoax decided this a long time ago) Through fossils? We know answers to these questions. But you reject this because evidently you’re trying save poor Bigfoot from the mean ole hunter. You have decided on your theory and now you’re scrambling backwards to prop it up. That’s not how science works. And as far as the Samoan? Yes he will have a Homo Sapien pelvis. So will the Pygmy. So will every Homo Sapien on the planet INCLUDING Wolf girl!🙀 No one would confuse their pelvis with a Chimp. If morphology and taxonomy mean anything to you? You will admit this instead of muddying the waters further. Lastly….. it doesn’t matter to me what Bigfoot is. I don’t care. I follow the evidence where it leads. But with that said? We will need a type specimen for science to accept this species REAL. Homo species, Ape, Monkey, Ground sloth, Etc, etc, etc. And it also looks like E DNA is out for proving the species to science unfortunately according to Skinwalkers article….. You can eat the script, burn the script, shout obscenities at my name…… it will change NOTHING.🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 So a Samoan, a Pygmy and a Chimp walk into an orthopedic center….. (sounds like the start of a good bar joke) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntster Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, norseman said: So a prairie dog is raised by beavers. Beavers build dams. They build dams because they have evolved wood chopper teeth. A prairie dog can run with the beavers because the beavers take care of him. That doesn’t make him a beaver. Just like the wolf girl doesn’t prove what you think it does.......... Incredible. After repeatedly writing the obvious in words your proverbial 6th grader *should* understand, you go as far as to now tell me that your still bass ackard interpretation of what I've repeatedly written "doesn't prove what I think it does"........while you clearly don't understand (or, more likely, simply refuse to accept) "what I think it does". This exchange is more a deep dive and drowning into *human* psychology than a debate on taxonomy or the ESA applied to the protection of an unrecognized species, which is clearly *PRIMATE* (attempting to jump up to taxonomic family in the desperate attempt to get beyond your lack of understanding or psychological grappling........now are we going to jump to extraterrestrial taxonomy?). Quote .......Again this is just an extreme example to prop up your rotten shoddy argument........ It is yet another shoddy example of misunderstanding or twisting my position to prop up whatever it is you demand to be so. Quote ........The genus Homo is associated with stone tool manufacturing and or fire......... How wonderful. Quote .......Do Beavers build dams? Yes or no?....... Yes. Quote ........Is this something most species do? Yes or No?........ Homo sapiens do it. So now let me ask you: Is this a beaver, or is this a Homo sapien? Edited November 19, 2023 by Huntster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntster Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 22 minutes ago, norseman said: ........And it also looks like E DNA is out for proving the species to science unfortunately according to Skinwalkers article…...... Correct. Refer to the psychology problem commanding control of the entire universe of understanding. The more we learn, the less we understand, and the even more we refuse to accept. Please, please hurry and recover and get out there and shoot a sasquatch. The world awaits.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, Huntster said: Incredible. After repeatedly writing in words your proverbial 6th grader *should* understand, you go as far as to now tell me that your still bass ackard interpretation of what I've repeatedly written "doesn't prove what I think it does"........while you clearly don't understand (or, more likely, simply refuse to accept) "what I think it does". This exchange is more a deep dive and drowning into *human* psychology than a debate on taxonomy or the ESA applied to the protection of an unrecognized species, which is clearly *PRIMATE* (attempting to jump up to taxonomic family in the desperate attempt to get beyond your lack of understanding or psychological grappling........now are we going to jump to extraterrestrial taxonomy?). It is yet another shoddy example of misunderstanding or twisting my position to prop up whatever it is you demand to be so. How wonderful. Yes. Homo sapiens do it. So now let me ask you: Is this a beaver, or is this a Homo sapien? It’s a Homo Sapien……or a human. Do you have ANY evidence that Bigfoot builds dams?🤣🤣🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 2 minutes ago, Huntster said: Correct. Refer to the psychology problem commanding control of the entire universe of understanding. The more we learn, the less we understand, and the even more we refuse to accept. Please, please hurry and recover and get out there and shoot a sasquatch. The world awaits.......... Well bad news. My chest still hasn’t fused and the prognosis doesn’t look good. So I guess it’s up to the next generation….👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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