Operation Persistence

[Guest]

Sorry to be redundant but I'm asking for other reasons other than concerns about the group being duped. I'm more worried about the safety issues for members in the group and actually harvesting an animal sooner than later. I'll just PM the rest of my questions if they are bothering everyone.

[Guest]

Here is a predator wiping out an entire ecosystem in a short time. Surely Wood Apes would be more effective than a lowly wolf at wiping out ungulates.

The article says there was a 70 percent drop in one species over 16 years. You say an entire ecosystem was wiped out in a short time. A slight exaggeration there, no?

"Predation by wolves and grizzly bears is cited as the major reason for the decline in elk numbers. Predation on newborn elk calves by grizzly bears may limit the elk population’s ability to recover from these losses." Although that article surmises that predators were the predominant cause for the decline in Elk, it also lists several other factors including targeted predation on young animals which eliminates the eminently viable breeding population prior to sexual maturity, and drought conditions which are known to cause a decline in reproductive activities in many animals. Wolves are strictly carnivores, a wood ape would likely be an opportunistic omnivore. Wolves are one of the most efficient and effective land based predators on the planet, few species rival their prowess at taking down game. Apparently there is a large population of Black Bears in the research area. Black Bears are notoriously effective ambush predators, why haven't they decimated the deer population?

And here is an example of humans wiping out the entire deer herd in Oklahoma. There were 500 deer left in all of Oklahoma, but these Wood Apes didn't get nabbed.

I don't know if you are a hunter, but I'm guessing you are not. I couldn't accurately count the deer in some of the more wooded neighborhoods skirting San Antonio. How on earth could they accurately count all of the deer in Oklahoma in 1916? Much of the wildlife in the more populated regions of the US saw a massive decline between about 1910 and 1925 because many rural populations were dependent almost exclusively on hunting to feed their families. With no means of refrigeration, and few wildlife management strategies in place back then, humans took a massive toll on animal populations.

To clarify my gun permit question, what kind of permits to you work under and are all members visiting the site required to have one?

I understand that TBRC members who want to possess firearms during the research outings have had to pass either a State certified gun safety program, or possess a State issued concealed carry permit which also encompasses a State certified gun safety program. Oklahoma honors Concealed Carry reciprocity from most states in the US. In Oklahoma there is no specific season, or specific law against hunting an animal that is not officially recognized to exist.

I'm not sure if people that did not grow up hunting understand that responsible hunters don't just blindly fire at anything that moves. Safety is a huge part of hunting culture, and kids are taught the three sacred rules of firearms handling from when they are very young. I think this all is circling back around to the hoaxer thing.

I honestly think that many people who did not grow up hunting and camping in inhospitable environments just can't wrap there heads around the logistics of what such a hoaxing would entail.

[Hairy Man]

Have you already stated the approximate angle of the incline?

The hillside was approximately a 30% grade - rocky with lots of vegetation. They covered about 50 yards in 3-5 seconds.

Sorry to be redundant but I'm asking for other reasons other than concerns about the group being duped. I'm more worried about the safety issues for members in the group and actually harvesting an animal sooner than later. I'll just PM the rest of my questions if they are bothering everyone.

Yes, you are being redundant. These questions has been asked and answered numerous times from the beginning of the thread.

[Guest BFSleuth]

The hillside was approximately a 30% grade - rocky with lots of vegetation. They covered about 50 yards in 3-5 seconds.

If this was 50 yards on flat ground, it ranges from much faster than the fastest known human (based on 40 yard dash times) to in the neighborhood of NFL linebackers. However, this wasn't on flat ground, but approximately a 30% grade on very difficult terrain.

If this was a purported hoaxer in a biggie suit, then I'm sure any NFL team would pay top dollar, which then begs the question why they are spending all their time trying to hoax an obscure bigfoot research group when they could go for fame and glory. That leaves only misidentification, hallucination, or TBRC verbal hoaxing as the fall back positions for our resident skeptics.

Two Bigfoot experts telling someone that he doesn't know how things work in the woods.

Can you site any links to either of these individuals claiming to be a BF expert, or is this another attempt to put the label on someone that does BF research as an attempt at a pejorative?

[Sasfooty]

So.....Possibly as much as 34 mph on a 30% grade, with a little one in tow.

I wonder what they can do on flat ground, 4X4, without baggage......

[Guest]

Your evidence does not matter if you can't guarantee that a person outside of your group has no access to the area.

Our hair evidence doesn't matter? Are they producing hair now? We should tell Sykes not to bother since, if we can't say no other humans are ever on site, any DNA he finds will be suspect.

...why waste the resources on cameras and other types of equipment when you can focus on hunting the animal?

Had you been paying attention, you'd know that we're not wasting too many resources on cameras. We use them now tactically. They are now a means to an end.

What kind of permit do you need to be armed on private land in Oklahoma? Is it limited to certain types of weapons or are laws not applicable?

Interesting questions. You should do some research into that.

Here is a predator wiping out an entire ecosystem in a short time. Surely Wood Apes would be more effective than a lowly wolf at wiping out ungulates.

http://www.nps.gov/y...knews/11005.htm

And here is an example of humans wiping out the entire deer herd in Oklahoma. There were 500 deer left in all of Oklahoma, but these Wood Apes didn't get nabbed.

http://pods.dasnr.ok...0/F-9009web.pdf

Apples and oranges. This is an established and stable ecosystem. Both of your examples of are of ecosystems that are knocked off balance by either the introduction of a predator or human expansion. Also, you assume the apes weren't "nabbed". There are many historical accounts of wood ape encounters.

I'm more worried about the safety issues for members in the group and actually harvesting an animal sooner than later.

We appreciate your concern. It's misplaced.

I wonder what they can do on flat ground, 4X4, without baggage......

They haul ass.

[southernyahoo]

I was one of the people who begged and pleaded for this thread to be re-opened. I somehow regret doing that now. If I were in Biptos shoes, I wouldn’t have even bothered subjecting myself to the extensive verbal flogging and character attacks he has endured to share this information. I have no idea why absolute non-believers would ever spend time on a forum dedicated to an animal that they are particularly certain does not exist. (Actually I do, but my generalized summary of their motives would likely be considered a violation of rule 1A) It is the wide criticism from the believers that surprises and confounds me. I’m not asking folks to just blindly believe what he is saying; everyone will come to their own conclusions. If you don’t believe him, fine. I have noticed in my short time participating here at BFF that there has been a rather hostile, Spanish inquisition-like atmosphere to any threads specifically related to the TBRC’s activities. I have seen other forum members make bizarre and (IMHO) very far fetched claims in their posts, which have received FAR less (if any) criticisms and negative responses compared to TBRC related threads. This person has taken a tremendous amount of time to share details that he feels may benefit others interested in the subject. It was probably at great personal expense (financially in time spent away from his business, as well as time away from his family and other interests) that he has established what he believes to be factual and useful information, and shared this information with complete strangers. Some people here act like they are entitled to every bit of information they ask for, and if they don’t get the answer they like, they begin reading between the lines and turning it into some kind of criminal investigation. He is not on trial. Are we entitled to all of the private details of all of your personal experiences?

The overall behavior of the "Bigfoot community" somehow reminds me of an episode of "the Twilight Zone". Let's set the scene.........

A group of people (who represent a wide cross section of a supposedly civilized society) are on a quest to discover the truth behind a strange mystery. They begin with a common goal, but after a period of time, they seem to focus all of their energy on attacking one another. They obsess over rival researchers not following a certain investigatory method, or others not agreeing with whichever unproven hypothesis that they support. Their once shared quest for truth has become a bitter struggle. The vibrant energy once focused towards resolving the mystery is now completely expended in a wrestling match to keep one another from making any progress, whether perceived or real. Now consumed with fear, anger, and envy, they have lost all focus on the reason they came…….

[Pan out to a group of Sasquatch silently observing the researchers from the treeline, cue Rod Serling's epilogue] "They plot and scheme, and tear and claw at one another. They spit the acrid venom of accusation, and twist every word to foster suspicion towards one another. As the mysterious hirsute observers in the trees silently file away and disappear quietly back into the night, they will sleep soundly knowing that it is not only their nature that keeps them safely hidden, it is OUR nature that ultimately keeps them relegated to the realm of myth. But for them the mystery has been solved. There really are monsters, just beyond the edge of the forest………in the Twilight Zone."

Irish, I wish you had been on this forum since around 2009. They haven't exactly respected other groups research or their right to keep research locations private. This is why Bipto is paranoid about keeping X secret. Somebody may feel they owe them one.

[Guest]

I have no idea why absolute non-believers would ever spend time on a forum dedicated to an animal that they are particularly certain does not exist. (Actually I do, but my generalized summary of their motives would likely be considered a violation of rule 1A) It is the wide criticism from the believers that surprises and confounds me.

Because.. they all have agendas.

[Guest John]

I genuinely feel that Bipto clamming up and pulling in the mat would be to our loss, not his.

This sort of concern used to be termed 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' if I remember correctly, going back much earlier than 2009 quoted above.

Personally I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

[Drew]

With no means of refrigeration, and few wildlife management strategies in place back then, humans took a massive toll on animal populations.

Except for one species...

[Sasfooty]

They haul ass.

Yeah, I know. I've seen one outrun a horse.

Just being a little sarcastic there, for those who deserve it.

[Guest]

Except for one species...

There's no data whatsoever to say man hasn't reduced the population of North American wood apes. Zero. For all you or I know, their numbers had declined drastically in the past two centuries.

[Guest]

Yes, you are being redundant. These questions has been asked and answered numerous times from the beginning of the thread.

I went back to make sure I didn't miss anything, and upon review my questions were pertinent and ot rehash, it was the answers that were redundant. My only conclusion is that you simply can't go into enough detail to really explain why it's totally impossible and that is fine. I will review the hunting laws, thanks Irish for explaining.

[Guest]

Our hair evidence doesn't matter? Are they producing hair now? We should tell Sykes not to bother since, if we can't say no other humans are ever on site, any DNA he finds will be suspect.

Had you been paying attention, you'd know that we're not wasting too many resources on cameras. We use them now tactically. They are now a means to an end.

Interesting questions. You should do some research into that.

We appreciate your concern. It's misplaced.

Actually if your hair is what you think it is, the geneticist ought to be able to pull off the code with the right decontamination procedures and primers so provenance really isn't such an issue. It will be what it will be and I hope you get conformation for what you are looking for.

I paid attention but what good does it do to get no pictures with game cams? If you use another method for filming by the time you get the pics they will be long gone. If you establish a pattern in their movements, they will simply alter their movement when they see your orange hunting vests. It really doesn't take a lot of intelligence for an animal to recognize a predator and evade it.

As I told Hairy Man, I will do the research for my own education here in my state and how that reciprocates with Oklahoma.

Famous last words, but I hope I'm wrong, and I mean that sincerely.

[Cotter]

I would render a guess they're using the cameras for funneling.

Just a guess....but that's a technique I'd employ.